In this episode of Navigating Major Programmes, Riccardo sits down with Hannelie Stockenstrom, Senior Vice President Legal Major Projects & Canada Legal Centre Of Excellence at SNC Lavalin, for a in-depth conversation on her experience as a woman in in the male-dominated industry and her hope for the industry as a whole.
In this episode of Navigating Major Programmes, Riccardo sits down with Hannelie Stockenstrom, Senior Vice President Legal Major Projects & Canada Legal Centre Of Excellence at SNC Lavalin, for a in-depth conversation on her experience as a woman in in the male-dominated industry and her hope for the industry as a whole.
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Transcript:
Riccardo Cosentino 00:05
You're listening to navigate major problems, the podcast that aims to elevate the conversations
happening in the infrastructure industry and inspire you to have a more efficient approach within it. I'm
your host Riccardo Cosentino I bring over 20 years of major product management experience. Most
recently, I graduated from Oxford University's a business school, which shook my belief when it comes
to navigating major problems. Now it's time to shake yours. Join me in each episode as a press the
industry experts about the complexity of major program management, emerging digital trends and the
critical leadership required to approach these multibillion dollar projects. Let's see where the
conversation takes us. And Ally stockin strong is an accomplished legal professional, and currently
holds the position of Senior Vice President of legal for SNC Lavell ins major project division, and she's
also a member of Canada Legal Center of Excellence of SNC Lavell. And in that capacity Annalee
provides senior management and project team with advice in a wide variety of legal matters, including
claims dispute and transactions. Anna Lee has extensive experience in major projects, national and
international joint ventures, p3, and alternative contracting, and elite monitors and advises management
and operations on legal trends and changes in the law and design implement a compliance program for
managing risk. And the Lee was chair of SNC Lavell in Canada Edna committee from 2020 to 2022.
And she's currently a member and pasture or the steering committee. Hello, welcome back to
navigating major programs. And welcome back to the miniseries of building bridges. Today, I'm here
with Hannelie, I've had the pleasure of working with Hannelie over the last 13 years, while SNC Lavell.
And I'm really excited to ever hear and to ever review on the topic that we covered in building bridges
with money Anna Lee, how you doing today?
Hannelie Stokenstrom 02:14
Hi, Riccardo. I'm great. Thank you. And thank you so much for having me.
Riccardo Cosentino 02:18
It's my pleasure. My pleasure. We talked about ED&I, we talked about diversity. And so I felt you be a
great guest on this podcast, because I think you're a bit passionate about the topic.
Hannelie Stokenstrom 02:29
I think that I am overly passionate sometimes about the topic, Ricardo, and when you get me talking
about it, I can't stop talking about it as you know.
Riccardo Cosentino 02:38
That's great. That's great. So why don't we why don't we just jump into the conversation? This is gonna
be a conversation. And you know, let's maybe just introduce yourself a little bit, we heard your bio, but
you know, what, what's your current role in infrastructure.
Hannelie Stokenstrom 02:54
I'm on the services side, I'm a lawyer, as you know, from my bio, and being with SNC Lavalin, and for
the last 15 years, and always as a lawyer, and currently lead the major projects legal team globally, and
the Canadian regional legal team. And what we do is, we involved on the project side, we are involved
from the RFQ stage, through the RFP, through the negotiation of the contracts, the putting into being
the sub contracts, the joint venture agreement, and then once we get awarded the project, we are the
legal resource and support during the execution of the project. And then, of course, if there are issues
disputes during the course of the project, or subsequently, as the project lawyers, we remain involved in
trying to resolve these disputes. But we are not the litigators, we actually have different lawyers who
deal with the actual dispute resolution. So we project lawyers in the true sense of the word.
Riccardo Cosentino 04:10
Okay, so you're covering, as you said, the service service component or the infrastructure industry,
which is the legal services to these two projects and major projects? Did you as a lawyer, were you
always an infrastructure lawyer, or do you start in a different practice?
Hannelie Stokenstrom 04:28
Now I joined the law firm, both in South Africa where I qualified. And when I emigrated to Canada, I
again went to a law firm, where I've always been involved in construction law, and at least the last 20
years I've been involved in construction law, but a very wide variety on the construction law side. And
the early part of my career. I was actually working in litigation, but I quickly learned that I am Much
more passionate about the front end work and making the deals happen and getting the projects built
rather than dealing with disputes.
Riccardo Cosentino 05:11
And so when you join the law firm, or you're always envisioning that stream, or you just joined
programs, and you ended up following a construction stream, or were you deliberately looking for
Construction Law,
Hannelie Stokenstrom 05:26
I've always been passionate about construction and infrastructure. I love breaches, I think they are
some of the most beautiful things in the world. And coming from South Africa, and having grown up in
Africa, and seen third world countries, and the effect that either good infrastructure or bad infrastructure
have on societies, infrastructure has always been a passion to me. But as I mentioned to you, I love
bridges. And I originally thought that I was going to be an engineer. But I realized that it's not going to
be my my future. So I actually did study a year of engineering at university. And then after that, I
transferred to a commerce degree and after my Commerce degree transferred to low, so I have a little
bit of that passion for engineering in me, but ultimately decided it will be on the service side as opposed
to be on the engineering side.
Riccardo Cosentino 06:29
That's fascinating. I've known you for 13 years, and I'm just learning about this passion of yours already
comes through, but it's good to actually pinpoint that now. It comes from the day to day. So obviously,
you knew you wanted to do so you knew you would end up in this something similar to this industry in
this industry? And and so once you join this industry is anything What was the thing that surprised you
the most about the industry?
Hannelie Stokenstrom 06:57
I think some of the work from from a gender perspective, I knew that it was a male dominated industry.
And it wasn't a surprise how many senior executives are still males in this industry. But the one thing
that that I think probably the most surprised me, is when you look at universities, and how many women
graduate in the in programs aren't whether it's on the commerce side, on the engineering side, on the
architecture side. On the finance side, how low our representation still is. And it's interesting, when you
look at the lower levels, the entry levels, it is we don't have so much of a problem at the entry level with
respect to gender equality. But we do have we see a fall off at the mid levels. And that keeps surprising
me is why do we continue to see that fall off. And the same thing with respect to other minorities and
people with disabilities, we still see mostly people who are looking the same in our infrastructure
industry. And that is something that it surprised me in the beginning. And it continues to surprise me
that we are this such a big gap of so many talented people that we can bring into the industry, and that
somehow we are still not managing to do that.
Riccardo Cosentino 08:37
It's interesting about the university the the comment is, you're right nowadays, because I've seen the
stats nowadays, we can actually at the entry level, we can almost have a 50/50 representation, which is
phenomenal, because I actually don't believe that the universities, breakdown of male versus female is
actually 50/50. So that's still a big issue. I remember even 20 years ago I was involved in a program are
going to talk to high school and the kids children's school because I think that's where that's where the
gender bias starts. And so as the Institution of Civil Engineers in the UK was having a big push to try
and attract or diversify, you know, to explain to young kids that engineering is for everybody is not just
for boys is for boys and girls. Well, I'm glad to see that we finally started to overcome that bias that
ideally ages
Hannelie Stokenstrom 09:35
100% and I'm reading a lot about the programs and that we are doing at schools and at universities,
about why to pursue a career in STEM and how STEM careers are not just for the a certain a certain
type of person So now, you don't have to look in this specific way in order to pursue a career in STEM.
But I also think it's on the services side, it's really important for people to understand that there's lots of
other positions within infrastructure that that you can do, you don't have to be an engineer. There's the
positions in construction, in sub contracting, in the trades, in finance, in law in HR. And we need all of
these in order for a program to come together, right? On a project management. Even today, in project
management and project directors, we still see people more or less looking the same way, as opposed
to, you know, sort of having a true diversity in there. And I'm obviously passionate about gender
diversity. But for me, diversity goes much further than that. And we need to expand our minds and think
about diversity everywhere. Because when when kids look at who's who they see on television, or in
stories, about infrastructure, and about construction or engineering, they see somebody that looks in a
certain way. So if they don't relate to that person, that's not the career choice that they're going to
make.
Riccardo Cosentino 11:22
Yeah, absolutely. That's so important to have representation so that people can identify with leadership,
you said something very interesting earlier about how, you know, now we have almost equal
representation at the entry level, but then, as the years go by, you know, there's more attrition on for
more, you know, for females than there is for for male and so, I, I'd like to explore that a little bit in your
mind. I mean, is it the, the environment that is basically pushing out mid level manager or female mid
level managers? Or is it more your mind or more societal situation that is forcing that and is
exacerbated in our industry, because the percentages are different than our representations are
already skewed towards towards men keeping those positions
Hannelie Stokenstrom 12:19
in our record, so I actually hope that somebody has given you and the people that you've done your
program with will do a study around this, because it's something that that I think about a lot is, whether
it is the environment. And whether women and other minorities feel that it's not a comfortable
environment within which to work, whether it is that, for whatever reason, women are not giving the
same opportunities, whether it is because they people think that that women don't want to do the same
things, you know, the travel for work, or go and work in remote places, or different places in order to do
these big programs in order to get a variety or varied experience, or whether it is because we don't
promote them within these programs and projects. And therefore they feel there's not opportunities, and
they therefore go elsewhere. I'd love to know what the real reasons are. I mean, people speculate a lot
about it. And a lot of the speculation really, actually irritates me, because what you most often hear is
that's the time when women decide to leave the industry in order to have a family, and then they don't
come back. I think that is a very outdated way of thinking, because there's no reason for women not to
have a career and a family. And we need to accommodate just as we need to accommodate a lot of
other things. We need to accommodate that. And there's absolutely no reason why we can't do that. So
I think that's outdated thinking, repeating myself, but I think it would be great to do a study and to better
understand why. At that mid level, the you see that fall off?
Riccardo Cosentino 14:19
Yeah, the biases are certainly there because I, I have caught myself. I mean, I'm at the end of the day,
I'm a middle aged white man can't help it. And I have caught myself I would find myself having the
biases, we all have them. And I think the point is, when he was pointed out to me, I immediately
realized that that mistake, but yeah, I had the bias, like oh, you know, is that person that woman really
just just had a second kid or is she really going to travel? And it was actually my wife that said, would
you ask that question about a man with two children? And isn't that a woman husband at home? Why
why why is he the one that has to give up? So immediately I was like was pointed out to me and I
realize very bias very biased. So you know, the biases are there. And yeah, I think there is something
that I think you're right. I mean, there are pushing women artists. And because it's a male dominated
industry, these biases are prevalent. Yeah, I
Hannelie Stokenstrom 15:15
think what you just said is very important. But it's also, we all have biases, right. And I, what is really
great is once we come to terms with those biases, and we understand what our unconscious biases
are, and we then aware of it that we can deal with it. That's why these unconscious bias testings and
exercises that you can do is so important, so you can better understand I have biases, we all have
biases. So but now I know what they are, and I can actually address them. But one of the other things I
was reading or listening to a podcast a while ago, from a woman who's a civil engineer, and the
podcast was about getting more women into civil engineering, and why it really is an exciting career for
for anybody. And people think that a it could be boring, or people think it's absolutely just for men. And
she was talking about the fact that women are not given the opportunities to grow within civil
engineering, and within big projects that may be in remote areas, or you have to travel for them. And
the misconception that women are not interested in traveling, and that or it may not be safe for them. Or
they may be a distraction on a project that I've heard that, you know, they may that's a male dominated
environment. So this woman is going to be a distraction. So these are all uphill battles that we have to
fight, but it goes back to the unconscious bias. And if there is an issue, and if it's not a safe
environment, or if there's going to be other issues on the project, that's the cause that we have that we
have to deal with that at the root of the problem, as opposed to not giving woman the opportunity to go
and do it. Right. That's not the solution.
Riccardo Cosentino 17:13
No, absolutely. Absolutely. Let me let me just switch gears a little bit. And I think I know I know you've
been involved with with women networks. So how important is in your mind mentorship for professional
success. And you personally haven't been able to find a female female mentor within the industry.
Hannelie Stokenstrom 17:34
I think mentorship is fundamentally important. In some instances, sponsorship is fundamentally
important. I've been very fortunate in that I've had amazing mentors in my career, and amazing
sponsors in my career. Unfortunately, none of my mentors were female, in when I grew up, both in
South Africa and when I immigrated here, there weren't a lot of women that were in the infrastructure
industry. And the people that most supported me were middle aged white men. And I have to give them
credit, they were very supportive of me, very supportive of my career. And I was also very lucky to have
parents who were very supportive and who told me, and that I could do and be anything and
everywhere that I want to be. So I did have that advantage that I grew up with probably too healthy, a
sense of confidence that I can do anything. And then I found the right people to support me. Women's
networks are fantastic, because we get the support there from each other. And there's a there's not just
women in these some of these women's networks. We have allies that join us. And those allies are
equally important to the women that are in those women's networks and the support that we get from
the industry in the sponsorships to do the things that we do. But within these women's networks, we
have mentorship programs. And for me personally, it's not just something that I do, because I have a
passion for it. But I think it is a duty that I have as women to act as mentors for young women. And I
honestly I don't think they are the only ones that get a benefit from it. I get an equal benefit and
satisfaction from doing it. And the reverse mentoring is incredible. Because learning from younger
women and the next generation and the next generations after me is is so important because society
has changed so much we need to understand how the Next Generations think we know that they have
different thoughts about institutions and society and trust. So learning from them and how they think.
Riccardo Cosentino 20:12
So obviously, you're passionate about infrastructure, you're passionate about construction, it is a
journey that you started voluntarily. So obviously, you would encourage, I'm assuming other women to
pursue a career. And I think you you cover that. But, you know, as you're thinking about future
generation entering the industry, what are your hopes? What are your hopes for the industry as a
whole? From a diversity standpoint? And even if you want to explore in general, what will work? What
do you hope for the industry,
Hannelie Stokenstrom 20:44
it's such an exciting industry, right. And it affects everything of what we do every day, how we move,
how we live, from a social perspective, from every perspective of what we do, and when you look at at
how infrastructure changes cities and communities, I hope that with a with a huge deficit of
infrastructure that we have in the first world and in the third world, that we will truly have a diverse
group of participants in the infrastructure industry, and that the money that we are contributing to
infrastructure or over the world will, as part of that infrastructure funding, have infrastructure diversity,
as as a goal. And that once again, that we don't just focus on on gender equality, but that we focus on
equality as a whole. And that we, we, when we look at, again, the first world, I think we have a better
chance of doing that. But that we also think of our roles in developing infrastructure in in the third world.
And obviously, I'm passionate about Africa, because that is where I'm from. And you look at the deficit
of infrastructure there. And not not just roads and transport, but energy, etc. is invest money in
education, and education, again, diverse education, and that we can create a better future for all
obviously, we have to think about sustainability, we have to think about climate change, and we focus
so much of our our efforts in the first world, but I'm concerned that we'll never gonna get there, if we
don't start putting some emphasis and focus in the third world, because that's where so much of the
carbon comes from, and that's so so heavily reliant on coal, and other non clean energy sources. So I
dream of a future that has a that has diverse participants. Creating a better future for the world
Riccardo Cosentino 23:23
is a very noble ambition. And yeah, we shouldn't leave anybody's behind. We shouldn't leave anybody's
behind. Holly, I wholeheartedly agree with that. Okay, I think we are coming to an end, I have one final
question, one that I pose to all my guests on these mini series. The question is, what would you say to
women who are considering a career in infrastructure,
Hannelie Stokenstrom 23:47
I would say to them, absolutely. Go for it, run after it. It's an incredibly exciting career. Be confident that
you can reach your dreams in it, find mentors, and qualify yourself as well as you can. But find yourself
mentors, join networks where you can meet other women and go after it with every fiber of your being.
Because it's such an incredibly rewarding career.
Riccardo Cosentino 24:23
I can vouch for that, having had a career in this industry. And yeah, I'm I hope this message will be
heard and we'll push it out to as many people as we can. Well, Hannelie, thank you very much for
joining me today has been a pleasure as I've learned something new about you today. More more
interesting. And yeah, again, thank you very much for joining me today.
Hannelie Stokenstrom 24:47
I look forward to listening to all of your podcasts. Perfect.
Riccardo Cosentino 24:51
Thank you. That's it for this episode on navigating major problems. I hope you found today's
conversation as informative and fun provoking as I did. If you enjoyed this conversation please consider
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by joining me on my personal LinkedIn at Riccardo Cosentino. Listening to the next episode, we will
continue to explore the latest trends and challenges in major program management. Our next in depth
conversation promises to continue to dive into topics such as leadership, risk management, and the
impact of emerging technology in infrastructure. It's a conversation you're not going to want to miss.
Thanks for listening to navigate the major programs. And I look forward to keeping the conversation
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