In this Master Builders episode of Navigating Major Programmes, Riccardo Cosentino and co-host Shormila Chatterjee sit down with previous colleague and friend Chantal Sorel, a seasoned leader whose 30-year career spans architecture, project management, and executive roles across industries including infrastructure, mining, and social infrastructure. With extensive international experience and a commitment to delivering value through challenging projects, Chantal reflects on her journey and shares lessons from managing high-stakes initiatives like the McGill University Health Centre. Chantal discusses the importance of breaking barriers as a woman in construction, fostering ethical collaboration, and adapting project management practices to meet evolving challenges. Her insights highlight the critical role of leadership, strategy, and societal impact in shaping the future of the industry. "Project management is about maximizing the result with the resources you have. That’s it. My definition of project management is maximizing the result with the resources you have and using them in the best combination—the right capacity and to the right objective and the needs that you have to fulfill, and not detracting from that. And this is what it is about. So for me, it’s always been a passion. I said I’m a builder. And of course, I’ve practiced infrastructure all my career because, for me, it was a way to deliver value, value for society. I’m a bit of an idealist, but I think that society needs value, and we’re there to deliver value." – Chantal Sorel
In this Master Builders episode of Navigating Major Programmes, Riccardo Cosentino and co-host Shormila Chatterjee sit down with previous colleague and friend Chantal Sorel, a seasoned leader whose 30-year career spans architecture, project management, and executive roles across industries including infrastructure, mining, and social infrastructure. With extensive international experience and a commitment to delivering value through challenging projects, Chantal reflects on her journey and shares lessons from managing high-stakes initiatives like the McGill University Health Centre.
Chantal discusses the importance of breaking barriers as a woman in construction, fostering ethical collaboration, and adapting project management practices to meet evolving challenges. Her insights highlight the critical role of leadership, strategy, and societal impact in shaping the future of the industry.
"Project management is about maximizing the result with the resources you have. That’s it. My definition of project management is maximizing the result with the resources you have and using them in the best combination—the right capacity and to the right objective and the needs that you have to fulfill, and not detracting from that. And this is what it is about. So for me, it’s always been a passion. I said I’m a builder. And of course, I’ve practiced infrastructure all my career because, for me, it was a way to deliver value, value for society. I’m a bit of an idealist, but I think that society needs value, and we’re there to deliver value." – Chantal Sorel
Key Takeaways
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[00:00:00] Riccardo Cosentino: Welcome to a special miniseries on Navigating Major Programmes podcast called Master Builders where we will spotlight the remarkable stories of accomplished female leaders in the infrastructure space. I'm your host, Riccardo Cosentino, and alongside me is my cohost, Shomila Chatterjee. On Navigating Major Programmes, we explore the complexity of major programme management from governance and risk to technology adoption.
In this miniseries, we will dive deep into the journey of women who have not only shaped the infrastructure landscape, but have also set new industry standards.
[00:00:37] Shormila Chatterjee: Our goal is to inspire and empower the next generation of female leaders in infrastructure by showcasing the incredible paths these women have forged. Through their stories, we'll explore the challenges, accomplishments and growth that define their careers.
[00:00:54] Riccardo Cosentino: Hello, everyone, and welcome to another episode of Master Builders. Today, I'm joined again by my cohost, Shormila Chatterjee. How are you doing, Shormila?
[00:01:03] Shormila Chatterjee: I'm well, thanks. How are you, Riccardo?
[00:01:04] Riccardo Cosentino: Great, great. Really looking forward to today's episode.
[00:01:07] Shormila Chatterjee: Oh yeah.
[00:01:08] Riccardo Cosentino: The special guest today, we have Chantal Sorel. How are you doing Chantal?
[00:01:13] Chantal Sorel: I'm doing very well. Thank you, Riccardo and Shormila
[00:01:16] Riccardo Cosentino: So for some of the listeners this is a bit of a getting the old gang together because we all used to work together, I want to say SNC-Lavalin, at the time it was called SNC-Lavalin, now AtkinsRéalis. Chantal was leading the capital group and I was working for Chantal in Capital and Shormila was working for me in Capital. So this is really a get together. So I'm really glad that we're here today to talk about the great contribution that Chantal made to the industry and to learn from her and about her experiences.
[00:01:47] Chantal Sorel: Yes. Thank you everybody to attend to this podcast. Let me introduce myself. My name is Chantal Sorel and as you can see with my accent, I'm coming from the French side of Canada, from the Montreal area, to talk about where I'm coming from and what has been my career path. I would say, first of all, I'm born in, I would say, the east side of Montreal, which is a very French Canadian, I would say, area, not English Canadian at all. So I had to learn English to perform my work, you can hear. And because I travel through my career all around the world and the Esperanto of today, as Riccardo knows, you can see Riccardo has a nice accent too, is the English. Living your life with an accent is great, and I think I've always been surrounded by people from all around the planet that we share this bad English common language, but it worked pretty well. So I'm born, like I said, the East part of Montreal, and at the time there was absolutely, I would say, not too many people around me that were part of either engineering, architecture, building, or construction, being professional in this field. And I was also part of the first generation that really started to go to university in Quebec for the one that know the history. So I cannot say I'm coming from an environment that was already knowledgeable of that. But I had a great interest for building, and when I was a kid I was playing with my brother and we like to play with our tanka and my mom always said that the best gift they can give us was cardboard and the scotch tape and we build, you know, a full city is, you know, it's true, a full city in the basement for months. I mean, so we were builders. And if I have a verb that can define who I am, because it's always good to have your verb, you know, I'll say, building. For me, you know, you call your podcast Master Builders, but I define myself as being a builder. So then I decided to go in architecture, so I'm still a registered architect. But it came very, very clear eventually I wanted to be the maître d'oeuvre, the master of the construction, you know, that we call in French to control the whole project. And I met at the time this person that he was working in the field that was project management. And in those years, there was absolutely no course or knowledge about project management around us. There was only two universities in the world that were having a master's degree in project management, and it was the one in Montreal, Université du Québec, and one close to Washington D. C. So, I decided to go and get my master's degree in project management. It was the best kept secret. And then I always continued to work in the field of a very large project, infrastructure project. That's what I wanted to do. Everything about construction and infrastructure. That's my origin, where I'm coming from. And I started, of course, as an architect because I needed to do my years. You pass a bit like engineer, you are junior and then you pass your exams. And when I got my title, I finished my master and then I started to work. There was no, uh, no job at all in the building industry, neither for civil engineer, for those that remember that, but I got a job in a subsidiary of Canadian national railway. I worked both with the international group on the project development. And in the summer, I was on the largest construction project at the time that was the modernization, of the commuter line between Montreal and the Montagne, which is now refurbished by the REM after all those years. So, I've been 5 years in the rail industry and various positions.
[00:05:17] Shormila Chatterjee: Oh, wow. So, when you went into architecture and then moved into construction, were you ever sort of nervous that that seemed male-dominated or you sound very like confident that you knew what you wanted to do.
[00:05:28] Chantal Sorel: Oh, yeah.
[00:05:28] Shormila Chatterjee: Where did that confidence come from?
[00:05:30] Chantal Sorel: I don't know. My parents always raised my brother and I as equal. And they always said that, why not us? What we've decided to do in life. And I don't know where my confidence came from, but maybe a bit from there. In fact, yes, there's a lot of people that detract me, I would say, to go into this field. The first time I came to a site work, because at the architectural firm I was, they soon realized that I was good to coordinate and so on, and I was strong in construction. So they sent me, you know, they gave me two projects that was pretty big, you know, for a young architect. I was still a junior at the time. Two schools to build and so on, and I was going really early on the site work. And attending with the contractor and I remember the first day I came there, there was a guy shoveling little rocks and so on. And then he said to me, what are you doing here, stealing our job? That was the first one.
[00:06:20] Shormila Chatterjee: Oh my gosh.
[00:06:22] Chantal Sorel: Yeah, but I wasn't doing exactly the same job. So I just passed my year, you know, I try to not get distracted by that. But I would say that after the end of those project, one of the contractor, I was meeting her real early. He said to me, you were not the nicest. He said, you were not the sweetest, but for God's sake with you, we knew where we were going. Thank you for that. You know, because I, you know, so I think that after five minutes, people forget that you're a woman when you're in a site work and you know what you're talking about and you take your place and so on. I don't know. I gained the respect. And I never tried to think too much about the fact that it was not my place. And it was the same thing.
[00:07:01] Shormila Chatterjee: Because it obviously was. Yeah, it obviously, you made your place. That's amazing.
[00:07:05] Chantal Sorel: But was it easy? Absolutely not. I mean, it's never been easy. I have to say that beside very few occasions, all the job I got, I had to fight for or push my way through, you know, because I was not the obvious one, you know, to get a job because it's a podcast, but I look very feminine, you know, there is no point there, even if we try, you have no doubt, and I never change myself, I mean, it is what it is, and it is what you have, you know, one other occasion, the most interesting one is that when our company went through a difficult trouble, there was this big hospital in Montreal, it was the biggest under construction before the French one in Montreal that was in construction in North America at that time. And they were looking for a project manager because there was no project manager for two, three months. It was just getting out of the ground. Everything has to be done, almost everything. I was the vice president in mining metallurgy at this time, which we were the division that were handling the biggest projects. They were looking for a project manager, so this guy came in my office to talk about who could be a candidate because a candidate needed to qualify with the government. It was a very large project, a PPP, 1. 5 billion. We are the constructor, 1. 5 billion of construction, 1. 5 billion of equipment we had to install. So it was about a $3 billion project. So anyway, full risk, constructor, PPP, just put everything. So he came to my office and he started to name guys that were around me, but they did not have half of the credential I had. So eventually I told him, I said, well, the only person I can see that could qualify with the government for such a thing, it's me. The guy started to laugh and he left my office. And of course he would never give my name. So I called one of my colleagues and I told her, I said, it bothered me why he was laughing and he left and he will never give my name. She said, contact the guy in charge that I met that just in the elevator and so on. So I returned to the manager that was in charge of that, very important man in the company, and I returned to him. He was abroad on a trip. And then he said, I want to see you in my office in two days. I'm back. I said okay. So I met him after half of an hour. He said, well, I sent your name to government and I got the job, you know, half of an hour and he decided, but if I had rely on the system, my name would never been there. And to be honest, we delivered a job on time, on budget. The client is happy. I meet him regularly. And we did not lose money, which is the miracle and the situation we were, so yeah, it was actually not a failure. So that's another one. I have a lot of story, but I don't want to just talk about negative stuff because for one person, I would say one guy, generally speaking, that did not give me a job, there's always another one that opened me the door. But I had to push a bit on the door to be known, you know, and recognize.
[00:09:46] Riccardo Cosentino: Of course, Chantal, I've heard this story before, and that's why I wanted you in the podcast because I knew you had great story to tell and great experiences to share with the audience. The project, just for the listeners, because I think you said enough. I think this is the McGill hospital, which is a very successful project. And in fact, I don't know if you know that we did the project, won an award at the C2P3.
[00:10:06] Shormila Chatterjee: Wow.
[00:10:06] Riccardo Cosentino: Sustainability. And I think this is the second award that the project received from the C2P3, so it is a great project. I think you joined the company, SNC Lavalin at the time, AtkinsRéalis today in the mining group that you moved into the infrastructure group delivering this mega project. Before I ask you about this mega project because I think we don't want to, as you said, just focus on the negative. I mean, you accomplished something really, really significant in delivering this mega hospital. But can you tell us a little bit more when you joined in, I think was it 2007 if I'm not mistaken, you joined and so what was your path in the company before you got this major project? Because I think you worked on a major project even before McGill.
[00:10:47] Chantal Sorel: Yes, yes, I came in the company and then I mainly worked before this project in the mining metallurgy. That was also before this and between the Canadian National Railway. I also work at ABB. Which is a big manufacturing firm, as a lot of you would know, it's the best school. I learned a lot there. I was in the project group, and I was handling the project service group, and also on my own projects. And then the last year I was at ABB, I was the global account manager. So another thing in my career, I always swing from being in the front end and developing and creating projects and also delivering them in the execution. So I know both sides, you know, I used to call it when I was a project manager, the people developing project, the dreamer department. And then when I was executing them, I was saying I'm the miracle department. So anyway, but as I've done both, I can say that being. On two sides, you know, at least I could see, you know, why one was acting this way and that I was trying at least when I was developing project to be aware of the structure and I mean, the structure of project when you develop them and be, I would say, palatable enough to be executed well. So I've always done both. So on the full spectrum, I would say that it's very important because it's as important to choose the right project and to develop the project well than to execute them. And this is something that is very important. So after ABB, I've been recruited at SNC and then I've been almost six years in mining metallurgy. And then I started on the project Cougar, which was in South Africa. And then I worked there for a year, almost a year, not totally in South Africa, but I was commuting, going there for weeks and coming back. We were on the beginning of a project for building an aluminum smelter with the Rio Tinto Alcan. Unfortunately, this project has been stopped because ESCOM was not getting the block of energy that was necessary. And then I came back. And when I came back, they asked me to take over all the operations for aluminum. So, we were having a portfolio of projects and I was overseeing the operation and going on different project.
I've been a lot to Qatar on the Catalin project. I was not the project director, but I was there. Often, I would say, to make sure that everything was going well, providing resource and helping to, I would say, the project manager and the team there to have the resource they needed. I travel a lot for this job, going to oversee the project and make sure that everything was going smoothly. Then they had me and those tests, like psychometric tests and all of that, so for executive and executive to be, and the conclusion was that I was very good at operation, but in fact, I was a strategist. They say, oh, you should use this lady as a strategist. You know much more where you're going. And there was a recasting of the division at the time. So they need me, a VP, a strategy. For all mining metallurgic group, and then I started to travel, but it was an old field, crafting what would be the structure of the division and also the different group and the focus market and so on. So, focus market, adapting the organization to be answering to those market, and then that was the position I was in when they came in. I went to the project for the hospital in one day, and I never could come back to my office. My assistant just had to pack my box and send that to the site, to give you an idea. That's what happened.
[00:14:03] Shormila Chatterjee: And maybe if I can ask strategy versus projects, because I haven't had as much experience as you, but I've been able to play a couple of those sides, but my heart seems to always be in the project work. I like the details. I like to be able to see something through. Did you ever struggle with kind of being so high level and then, you know, the difference between that and the really tangible working on the ground, or you, you found that it was easy to transfer.
[00:14:26] Chantal Sorel: Yeah, for me, it was easy to transfer. I'm, I'm a bit of a strange animal. You know, when I'm in something I get into it and I never look back.
[00:14:33] Shormila Chatterjee: Yeah.
[00:14:33] Chantal Sorel: I just do it. I like both. I like a lot of things, different variety, I would say, but there's nothing like a thrill of delivering a project. You know, it's like almost a drug, people love project for that. And that's why for me, even when I wouldn't try to be at anything, any job I've done or function and so on, I've always been revolving around the project delivery and setting the best environment to deliver the project. And I would say that this word means much more and the good news is now it's known. Now, every university, every MBA has something in project management. One thing we did not talk about is I've been also very involved with different associations related to project management and infrastructure. From 1997 to 2004, I've been involved in the Project Management Institute in Montreal. I've been the president of the chapter there, which is the biggest French chapter in the world. We are even bigger than anything in Europe. We won the Project of the Year award when I was the president, not to boast, you see, in English, but it is a fact.
[00:15:35] Riccardo Cosentino: You should boast.
[00:15:36] Shormila Chatterjee: Yeah. It's amazing.
[00:15:37] Chantal Sorel: And really, we work on our vision and we're saying we need to have a vision and mission, has to be known and renown for project management, make it known. So we went a lot at the different level of the government and the big corporation and make known. And I have to say that 20-something year later, even a bit more than that, about 20, 25 years. Now, there is seven university, you know, in Montreal and the seven university have a program in project management. There is everywhere. And now the accidental project manager, it does not exist that much. I mean, when I started, anybody could become a project manager, anybody. Now people need to have some training, knowledge, develop a common language. I'm not saying the personality and your own skill is not important.
It's super important for a project manager, but, knowing your base is also important. So I'm very proud to see that the effort that we put bring a level of professionalism on project management and programme management. And as you know, this world will have a scarity of human resource money. There's a lot that has to be done. And what is project management and doing, project management is doing the maximum with what you have. That's it. My definition of project management is maximizing the result with the resource you have in hand and use them in the best combination, right capacity, aim to the right objective and the needs that you have to fulfill and not detract of that. And this is what it is about. So for me, it's always been a passion. I said I'm a builder, and of course, I practice infrastructure on my career and it's because for me it was to deliver value, value for the society and a bit of an idealistic, but I think that the society need value and we're there to deliver value.
[00:17:20] Shormila Chatterjee: And it's interesting, a little bit different, but there's some parallels. I also started in mining at SNC and then moved into infrastructure as well. I had a bit of a sense of mining is very essential. We all need copper, we all need aluminum, but there is a sense, you know, you talk to the environmentalists or like the, sort of the integrity around mining can vary depending on the mine or the client, but infrastructure and transportation and healthcare, social infrastructure, there's really something altruistic or socially beneficial to it than obvious and also tangible and a lot of those products happen to be in Canada or in your backyard in Montreal, which is nice. Did you find a difference in kind of how you felt about the work between mining and infrastructure? It was all, exciting and important, and okay, good. I love that you're, you're really kind of passion.
[00:18:07] Chantal Sorel: For me, mining, you know, there is a very long guy, Sean Rosen, you know, he's the chairman of (inaudible) school when he's saying something interesting, he was on a board with me at a time and he said, if you don't grow it, you mine it. We can talk about recycling, you know, recycling, it's nice, but it will not fulfill the need of this world. And the thing is that I'm involved in a mine at the moment I'm sitting on the board of a gold mine and I can tell you the way this mine is developed, seriously developed to prevent any environmental damage, you know, I would say it is the way you have to do it because unfortunately, if you are disinterested of mining and just being against people don't realize that everything you have around you, if you don't do it, you mine it. Okay, a bit of recycling, which we should develop more, but we're not there yet. So we have to be very careful because if you're not doing it the right way, you will just buy material that are coming from places where they don't have the same regulation and it's the same planet. And it's a bit of a disadvantage we have at the moment, because we're all talking about those rare material. And our resources that we have in Canada, and we follow the regulation, but of course that has a cost. If you're ready to accept, you, all wants to pay the lower, but you will get material that are coming from countries that don't have the same rules. If we go abroad, we should bring our rules with us. We should do clean mining, clean metallurgy. And I had the chance to work with the, I would say a company, you know, a company like Rio Tinto, BHP Billiton. And I remember I went in Suriname once and uh, it was funny. I was in my office and everybody was gone. I don't know why. And they say, um, and then, uh, it was a client. You needed people to go to Suriname to go to see a site for (inaudible). They say, okay, finally, uh, nobody was there and it was very urgent. So I said, okay, Chantal, go. I was saying, okay, where is Suriname, you know, and, you know, it's in, it's one of the Guyana, you know, but I was like, Suriname. So you arrive there in Paris Marie Beau, you know, and they're absolutely, it's very limited and so on. And we flew with a little plane, you know, above the forest there and so on, but you see all those wild mining and it's so sad, you know, it's so sad because they have absolutely no rules to follow while in the case that everything I was working on, we were at least very conscious of environment and so on, and it's even more today. So I'm not saying it's perfect, but we have to have a reflection to not being against always. And we need to open the discussion and talk to the people that are against and try to understand their point of view and come to at least, I'd say, not an agreement, but know each other better. This is what I would say. I think that the biggest mistake project can make is not being listening and ignoring the social side. The project, fortunately, that I worked on, they were very strong on that. And the one I am on the board, I think we have a fantastic VP for environment. She's incredible. I think she has a lot of respect, respected by a lot of entities. So that's what I would say. So I don't prefer, necessarily, infrastructure to mining. I think it all depends on how it's done.
[00:21:21] Riccardo Cosentino: Chantal, I always have an awkward question to ask the guest, because I'm, obviously, similar to you and Shormila, I'm a project person and in fact i'm a mega project person, I love large complex projects so this is gonna be a tricky question but do you have a favorite and I know it's like picking your children, with your favorite children but, do you have a particular project that you like particularly proud? I'm sure you're proud of all of them, but it was, is there one that stands out?
[00:21:45] Chantal Sorel: For sure it's the hospital. For sure, because some people are saying, oh, we don't like the architecture and so on. And then, you know, I did not choose the color because if you know, this hospital is very colored, but if you are inside, it's so bright, the design inside and so on. And the way we build it, I have to say that we put a lot of attention to quality. That it was clean, that there was no, you know, was it, how you call that when you have mushrooms on the wall, you know? .
[00:22:12] Riccardo Cosentino: Moisture, moisture.
[00:22:12] Shormila Chatterjee: Mold and moisture.
[00:22:14] Chantal Sorel: Mold, mold.
[00:22:14] Shormila Chatterjee: Yeah.
[00:22:14] Chantal Sorel: Mold, yeah, exactly. We pay too much attention. And I was always saying to the team, you know, we were having close to 500 professionals on this project and 2000 workers. And then I was always saying it's great when we do that, but I always think that the people that will follow us, it's even more important. There is 22 operation room. There is 80 different, very, very specialized. It's one of the top hospital in Canada. What's happening there is incredible. So I always say to my team, as much as I want to encourage us and say, we're great. Never forget who are following us. I still see this project regularly, and I've been there myself for a couple of times, not for my health, but for other people. I have to say it's great. I'm very proud. I have no regrets. It's been a rough ride, but it's still there standing proudly. It's funny though, I meet people that are working there, and they're happy. There was a lot of criticism, of course, when you start something new. But generally speaking, the comments I get are very positive. So that's the one I'm the most proud of, but (inaudible) there's a lot of things I've done that I really, really like, but this one, one of them, it was my jewel on the crown.
[00:23:17] Riccardo Cosentino: It's the many negative sides of our industry, but I think the real positive side of our industry is that you get to see almost every day, what you have accomplished, right? I'm the same whenever I drive by a project I worked on, is, it gives you a really nice good warm feeling that I was part of that I was part of that.
[00:23:37] Shormila Chatterjee: No, that's incredible. And speaking of actually children that's a good kind of picking your favorite I won't ask you who's your favorite child but like how you balance your professional life and personal life. I remember when we first met, you talked about your family, and at that time, I wasn't even thinking of having kids, and now I have two. We were just talking before we started recording. I have two of my own now, and I always admired how you've been able to balance all that. How did that work, and especially when you had a young family, like, if you could peek inside the curtain and tell us how that journey was.
[00:24:05] Chantal Sorel: Sometimes I wonder myself and just for the (inaudible), the father of my kids is an entrepreneur and he was starting his own business at the time that we just decided to have kids. So everything was pretty crazy, but he was a right partner for that. You know, we were both working a lot, but both being there when it needed for our kids, I would say we're sharing the work with the kids. I had to travel. I had to travel, but first of all, someone said I had the kids I needed. They're very easy and they were so it was funny one, but also they're not only easy, but I had the chance that they're healthy as well. Physically healthy and psychologically up to now, I would say they were kids easy to have. At the same time, I never treated them like kids. I treated them like kids, but I always explained to them and never make a big drama if I had to go. And when I was coming, they never made tantrum, to be honest. It was our life. I mean, I had no choice. At the time, I was the breadwinner and I needed to work, you know, and anyway, I love my work. But it was even not a question that you were asking. I was just doing it. And the kids just came into that, this craziness, and they've been part of it all our life. When I was a president of a project management institute in Montreal, for example, I had some time, but there was an event and I had to finish the speech and the closing, but the daycare, you know, was closing at six. So sometime, I was, I always lived close to my job, I have to settle down. I was running in my car, picking up the kids, bringing them there. My colleague, well, I need to be, they were stuffing them with little sandwich and all of that, it was there. And then, I was doing my speech. And one thing is funny, though, is that my youngest is an engineer now working in the industry. She was at the cafeteria lately at her company, and then the senior VP came to sit with those young engineers and so on, and he started to talk, and he said he used to work at SNC, and said, you should know my mom, you must know my mom, and she named me, he said, wow. And then he recognized who she was and he couldn't believe it because he was often the one in charge of her and, and he's been also one because when I was coming, I was at capital coming to Toronto. I was mainly living in Montreal and I was staying at the hotel downtown and then my older, she was sitting at York. So she was coming in the evening, you know, and often I was taking a room with two beds and then the day after she was going. Anyway, as a mom, I was always carrying this duffel bag with all food in it and things.
[00:26:31] Shormila Chatterjee: I remember, I remember it.
[00:26:33] Chantal Sorel: Oh, riccardo, I was coming by Billy Bishop and Riccardo was carrying that through the city to our meeting. Not to say that, yeah, it was a hell of a journey. And I remember when I was in Winnie Metallurgy, we had a new senior vice president, executive vice president, and then there were the management team around the table and I was the only woman. We're about nine, eight, nine of us, and he asked us to go around the table and say, what was our job? What was our family situation or personal situation? And what was our main hobby? And I was the last one. And I said, I have this job and I have two kids and blah, blah, blah. And I said, I don't have time for a hobby. And it's okay. It's what I'm living now, but I live it at full. I will have time for that. So that's why I would say I always put priorities and balance that as much as I could. I don't consider myself as being a part time mom at all. I was a full time mom, very involved with them, but also they understood that life is many aspects. And today they are doing their own and so i think it's not bad you know they're pretty good kids.
[00:27:39] Riccardo Cosentino: I mean, as you know, I don't have kids so i can only speculate what it's like to have kids and have a full time job, a full time career. The way you told the stories, what I take is that you just have to do what you have to do.
[00:27:54] Chantal Sorel: Exactly.
[00:27:54] Riccardo Cosentino: And you just keep your head down and you gonna do what you gonna do and everything else falls into place.
[00:28:00] Chantal Sorel: Yes.
[00:28:01] Riccardo Cosentino: I'm sure it doesn't, but if it doesn't, it doesn't.
[00:28:07] Chantal Sorel: You choose your battle. Like I said, I did not do anything else than caring for my family, my friend. I have a close friend as well. And for me, it's the principle of putting their priority in what is important. And my career was important. My family was important. My close friend was important. And I balanced all of that as much as I could. Also, the fact of the type of job, okay, I was absent for my travel, but when I was there, I had a lot of flexibility. And this is an advantage. If you're in a job, you cannot leave your office and so on. But in my case, I could manage my schedule. So I remember when they were at the primary school, there was an activity that was the little cook and I just marked that and fortunately the school was having it. It was a public school, a very good school and I could mark that in my calendar and as much as possible,
I barely never miss any because I work around that. I was going to school at lunchtime, it wasn't my lunchtime, and I was there as a mom and some of the people there, mainly moms, thought I was not working. I always run, but it was my choice. I was not a victim and I love doing that. I mean, I have no regret. Lately, I just retired, but of course, people like me retire, but we take some time, a little bit of other things. And then my daughter said, Mama, living your best life. And I, I returned, we text, you know, a lot because they're busy girls. And I said, no, you have to understand, I always live my best life. I loved every stage of my life. I always live them.
[00:29:33] Shormila Chatterjee: I can really feel that, Chantal, you somehow, I wish I could bottle this, like, you just have this perspective on life that's so refreshing. And I think that's really, feels like your superpower, like you just can go and it's whichever direction is the right direction. And that's incredible. It's really incredible.
[00:29:51] Chantal Sorel: Yeah, so I've been lucky as well, like I said. I mean, good opportunity, good family. Yeah.
[00:29:56] Shormila Chatterjee: And how has that transition been? Like, I'm sure you must be still very busy, but how was the retiring and then moving into the sort of the board work and that sort of strategic direction work?
[00:30:06] Chantal Sorel: I have been on board for those associations, you know, I've been on the board of the C2P3, the board of The Infrastructure Council, the board of PMI, then the board of Falco, which is a listed company, but it was not my main thing. It was something aside. And then I would say that again, when I do something, I don't look behind. I have to say, I really stopped full time working last February, and I haven't got bored. I've done so much stuff. And now I just resurfaced. Some people are saying where have you been? And I said, oh, I just retired a bit in my land. Like they were saying, you know, . So I just took a break, you know, and then I was very happy. But now I got called from, I cannot disclose that at the moment. We'll see how it goes and if it is announced, it's happening, but it's looking good. Interesting enough, it's a good achievement for people in project management. Now I get called from a company listed or I would say others that want people with project expertise on boards. And for me, it's a good acknowledgement that we've done something on the last 20, 30 years to make known that professional project management is a value. You know, board wants having ex-CFO because for the number and the audit committee, they want having people in remuneration because it's a big thing for listed company. But now it's interesting that those one call I received because they want someone on the board because a bad project or a bad program because some, it's over 20 years, you know, in company and it's transformational. It's big, can kill your company. And they want to know, as a board, we will make sure that the management is going in the right direction and what they say makes sense. So now I receive those calls and I think that I will probably make myself a two other board because you cannot overstretch you, but it will be my contribution probably into the society. In the future.
[00:31:59] Shormila Chatterjee: I'm speaking to two project management gurus between Riccardo and you, Chantal, you talked a little bit about professionalism. Has there been any big other trends or changes or evolutions in project management that you've seen in the last couple of decades that it's trending in the right direction? I know the complexity obviously is something that, you know, a lot of major projects now have a technological component generally. Like, are there other things that you find are interesting or have evolved in a new way?
[00:32:26] Chantal Sorel: Yes. But I think that, effectively, like you say, we used to use the technique that were after Second World War that are super good still for traditional project. Don't forget that the basic is the basic. I was in an interview lately for one of those boards and I said, there is the meat and potato project, the one that you execute as, you know, the good old time, little twist of technology. And then you have the agile one that you absolutely have to manage differently, because you don't know exactly what the end result. You know the need you have to fulfill, but you have to put the mechanism in place to develop this project, and you know what? More and more, the gap is closing between the two. That was interesting, you know, it was more the technology project that we call agile if we want to end the buzzword. But now, everything is intelligent, even a mind is intelligent. Like in my last months that I was not doing too much in front of anyone, you know, in my little up here, I have done a lot of course on the artificial intelligence. Because if you don't understand artificial intelligence, it's like 20 years ago, say, I don't want to learn what is internet. I mean, you have no choice and the gap is closing. So I would say this is the big game changer that the bandwagon will have to get on and we learned how to do it because it's still valid. But how do we add a more agile way to do things? So, I would say this is what I see mainly as a change.
[00:33:55] Shormila Chatterjee: What about, can I ask you, Riccardo, too? We're going to turn this a little bit into an AI project management.
[00:34:01] Riccardo Cosentino: Yeah, because Chantal was talking about the tools, right? I think it was only recently, and I might have mentioned it before, but, you know, we use the Gantt chart, and I didn't realize that Mr. Gantt actually developed the Gantt chart in the 1920s. So the tool that we're using today, I think you can look at it both ways you can look at it as how timeless that tool was but also maybe how, as an industry, as a profession we also need to start looking at the different ways of different tools. My pet peeve with a Gantt chart is that when we think of how complex major programmes are today and the level of complexity that we have and we're trying to represent the complexity in a linear fashion, from a Gantt chart, and it's a really good sense making tools, but sometimes I think it's a reductionist tool that doesn't really help you understand and manage the complexity of the projects that we have today so I have this concept in my head that it won't be me but I think somebody will come along and will disrupt the Gantt chart as a way of planning complex projects.
[00:35:09] Shormila Chatterjee: The Cosentino cube. And there's something, there's something in there.
[00:35:14] Riccardo Cosentino: It won't be me. I really appreciate, Chantal, that we're talking about project manager, program management because I think it's the work that you and your peers have done to elevate this profession because, yeah, in the old days, if you knew how to coordinate something, you were a project manager, and then that certainly is the basic skill, but for the complexity in the project that we have today, that's not a sufficient skill, right? It really takes more than that, more knowledge in that. And I like the way you describe project management is doing the best you can with the resources that you have. And then all the tools that have been developed, the processes that have been developed in order to do that and to achieve that. They always get lost. I don't think people understand that being a project manager comes with skills and tools and that's what really makes a difference and knowing how to use those skills and tools, it's what allows project management to be successful and of course you can coordinate something without those skills and tools like everything else in life, but it is a solid foundation and one that should be rewarded.
[00:36:19] Shormila Chatterjee: My question that i always ask guests is do you feel like a master builder now that you're retired, or I won't say retired, but have a little bit more time, do you sit back, do you have time to reflect, do you say wow, I really did make a mark on the industry the way that we feel that you have. Has it sort of sunk in?
[00:36:36] Chantal Sorel: I would say somewhat, yes. I mean, you can always look and find people that have done more, that have achieved more and so on. Like anything, you can always find people more rich than you, more this, more that. But to be honest, I'm in peace with myself, with the career I have. I've done things that I wanted to do. I think I delivered stuff. I also participated and contributed to association, to advancement of the profession. I have to say, I have two kids that are contributors now, that are contributing to the society. If I go look around, maybe some people will say I'm content easily, but no, I'm content with what I've done. That's why I'm living my best life now, because of that. I always live my best life, and at my age now, I look around and I say okay, that was good. That was a good run. And I had fun through that. I had, also, it was always difficult as well. It was not always a walk in the park, you know. But all in all, I'm very positive about everything, and yes, I would say I'm a builder. Am I a master builder? I mean, you can find master builder maybe other than me, but at least I'm a builder. I build stuff.
[00:37:42] Shormila Chatterjee: Wow, I'm just trying to picture like a young Chantal with a cardboard in your basement, and like from there to here, it must be such a full circle moment. That must be really incredible.
[00:37:53] Chantal Sorel: Yeah, I think this moment that you say, I was once sitting in the office, you know, I was overseeing the big site work and there was this guy with the bulldozer moving stuff and so on. And I was looking at him with the big pack of sand and so on moving stuff. And I was seeing myself in the sandbox with my brother with my little tongue (inaudible) Honestly, it's always been my dream to go on a bulldozer. And it's a powerful one as a bulldozer. I want to use it, you know, in a safe environment with the right person next to me.
[00:38:24] Shormila Chatterjee: I'm sure we can make that happen.
[00:38:28] Riccardo Cosentino: I like how you have safety still there right with the right person. You just don't jump into a bulldozer and start driving. It takes a construction professional to know that. You can't just drive it. I think we're time. This is being a terrific conversation. I'm so glad that we made this happen. I mean, not only we got to get together again after so many years, but the perspective that you brought and you know, we had several guests, and I think we were really keen to have somebody with your background you know with a construction experience. Women in infrastructure, you know, there's not enough of them. Unfortunately, women in construction is even less so to actually have somebody that comes and talk to the audience about your experience your challenges your successes has been terrific, so I want to thank you for that.
[00:39:19] Shormila Chatterjee: Yes, thank you so
much Chantal.
[00:39:21] Chantal Sorel: It has been my pleasure, always a pleasure talking to you.
[00:39:24] Riccardo Cosentino: Perfect.
[00:39:25] Shormila Chatterjee: Thank you so much it's really inspiring. I'm gonna find you a bulldozer to say thank you. So I'll make some calls.
[00:39:33] Riccardo Cosentino: Until next time. Bye now. That's it for this episode of Navigating Major Programmes. I hope you found today's conversation as informative and thought-provoking as I did. If you enjoyed this conversation, please consider subscribing and leaving a review. I would also like to personally invite you to continue the conversation by joining me on my personal LinkedIn, @RiccardoCosentino. Listen in to the next episode where we will continue to explore the latest trends and challenges in major programme management. Our next in-depth conversation promises to continue to dive into topics such as leadership, risk management, and the impact of emerging technology in infrastructure. It's a conversation you're not going to want to miss. Thanks for listening to Navigating Major Programmes and I look forward to keeping the conversation going.