In this special Master Builders episode of Navigating Major Programmes, Riccardo Cosentino and co-host Shormila Chatterjee are joined by Marianne Smith, a distinguished partner at Blakes National Infrastructure Group, to celebrate her remarkable career and pay tribute to Judy Wilson, a trailblazer in Canada’s infrastructure industry. Judy, a world-renowned procurement lawyer and a champion for diversity, left an indelible mark on the sector before her passing. This episode honors her legacy while highlighting Marianne’s own contributions as one of Judy’s closest mentees. With over 20 years of experience in infrastructure and procurement law, Marianne has played a pivotal role in shaping public-private partnerships (P3s) across Canada. She shares her journey from working alongside Judy to becoming a leader in the field, emphasizing how mentorship and advocacy for diversity have been central to her success. "Judy was a champion of diversity. She was an ally before we had the nomenclature of what an ally is. She used her power, authority, influence. Not just selfishly, but also to promote, women, people of color, anyone who might've felt, that they didn't belong in the boardroom or around the table, talking about tough, infrastructure type issues. She really did impact so many people in that way." – Marianne Smith
In this special Master Builders episode of Navigating Major Programmes, Riccardo Cosentino and co-host Shormila Chatterjee are joined by Marianne Smith, a distinguished partner at Blakes National Infrastructure Group, to celebrate her remarkable career and pay tribute to Judy Wilson, a trailblazer in Canada’s infrastructure industry. Judy, a world-renowned procurement lawyer and a champion for diversity, left an indelible mark on the sector before her passing. This episode honors her legacy while highlighting Marianne’s own contributions as one of Judy’s closest mentees.
With over 20 years of experience in infrastructure and procurement law, Marianne has played a pivotal role in shaping public-private partnerships (P3s) across Canada. She shares her journey from working alongside Judy to becoming a leader in the field, emphasizing how mentorship and advocacy for diversity have been central to her success.
"Judy was a champion of diversity. She was an ally before we had the nomenclature of what an ally is. She used her power, authority, influence. Not just selfishly, but also to promote, women, people of color, anyone who might've felt, that they didn't belong in the boardroom or around the table, talking about tough, infrastructure type issues. She really did impact so many people in that way." – Marianne Smith
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00:00:00:00 - 00:00:34:24
Riccardo
Today is, special edition of, Master Builder. Today's episode is, an episode in memory of a great pillar of our industry in Canada. The person that we're referring to is Judy Wilson. She was, great, a great pillar of our community. And unfortunately, Judy passed away. However, we felt that we needed to celebrate her accomplishment and her contribution to the industry.
00:00:34:26 - 00:00:49:21
Riccardo
So we reached out to one of her protege, who was very gracious to, join us on the podcast and, to, to remember, Judy's accomplishment. And so today I'm here with my co-host, Tommy Gee
00:00:49:21 - 00:00:54:18
Riccardo
and the guest of today representing Judy, Marianne Smith. How are you doing, Maryanne?
00:00:54:20 - 00:00:59:10
Marianne
I'm doing very well. Thank you so much for having me today, guys.
00:00:59:13 - 00:01:21:06
Riccardo
So maybe before we, we jump in to jump in and talk about Judy, can maybe, a little brief introduction about yourself and, you know, your experience in the industry and then why you're the best person position to talk about Judy's accomplishment in the industry.
00:01:21:09 - 00:01:53:04
Marianne
Sure. Happy to. So I'm a partner in the Blakes national Infrastructure group. I've been practicing, infrastructure and procurement for the last 20 years. My practice is primarily focused on public sector clients, so we act for authority clients across the country, and all levels, federal, provincial, municipal. I've really enjoyed the practice over the years. It is, it is dynamic.
00:01:53:04 - 00:02:31:22
Marianne
I've worked on some great projects. I'm particularly proud of the work we have done, here in Ontario, but also in other places in Canada, including doing a number of first of a kind municipal P3 projects across the country. And so I was very fortunate to to be a part of that. I have I worked with, with Judy almost, my entire career at, Blakes, she and, and Graham McLeod, were some of the first people I worked with as a student at Blakes.
00:02:31:25 - 00:02:59:17
Marianne
And so, you know, and and I was Judy Wilson's junior, for a very long time. Maybe, maybe, maybe my whole career. And so I was really fortunate to learn from her and to really build the practice together, too, because I when I started working, with Judy, she had just I started doing some work for Infrastructure Ontario.
00:02:59:17 - 00:03:34:10
Marianne
She was doing a number of large outsourced things, not in the infrastructure space, but. And I worked on a number of those. And then, as I o started to grow, we, we did more and more projects, for them being fortunate enough to be there kind of from the ground up. And so, even now, you know, you can look at parts of the I o template documents and I, I, I remember where those came from in the debates we had about how to draft certain parts of those.
00:03:34:10 - 00:03:59:23
Marianne
So definitely, you know, I, I think I, I kind of saw her own, evolution to be a master builder in the industry. So I think, you know, and I'm, I'm humbled to be here and sad to be here. It's not, you know, like I said at her celebration of life, I would of much rather give that speech at a retirement dinner.
00:03:59:25 - 00:04:11:23
Marianne
But but here we are. So I'm really grateful to you, Ricardo and Sharmila, for for taking the time to to celebrate. Yes. A great pillar of our industry.
00:04:11:25 - 00:04:27:11
Shormila
And and maybe, if I may, as the as the one who unfortunately didn't get to know Judy very well. I'll start with you, Marianne. And then also to you, Ricardo. How did you first meet her? It is that sort of a foundational memory of yours?
00:04:27:13 - 00:04:53:23
Marianne
Yeah, for sure, for me. So I, you know, I'm a Blake lifer, so I summered in articles here. And, as I met Judy as an artist student, I, and as I said, I did some work for her, and she had such a dynamic personality. And for me, I think one of the first things that drew me to Judy is that she didn't really fit the Bay Street mold.
00:04:53:23 - 00:05:12:27
Marianne
She and I both grew up in Hamilton, and so we had that, in common. She didn't fit the mold. She actually didn't, she articled and spent the first part of her career in Ottawa, working for a firm there and then working for the regional Municipality of Ottawa. Carleton.
00:05:12:29 - 00:05:13:10
Shormila
Oh.
00:05:13:16 - 00:05:36:18
Marianne
And so she had, spent some time. And so she kind of didn't fit. She was different than some of the other people I was working with. And she just had an authenticity about her, that I was really drawn to. And I was drawn to the work to she was doing, large procurements, large outdoor things. I was really interested in it.
00:05:36:18 - 00:06:05:08
Marianne
She had a number of public sector clients always in the infrastructure space, but not in the infrastructure space. When I started working with her, we did a number of outsourced things in the health care space as well. And, that really resonated with me because I had actually worked in government before I became a lawyer. And so I had this kind of natural affinity to those, clients into those projects.
00:06:05:08 - 00:06:38:08
Marianne
And I felt like, she and I worked really well together were both, you know, we're both kind of outspoken and, have outgoing personality, so that, actually kind of worked and I really, really liked her work. And I really found those projects interesting and meaningful. And so I was really drawn to working with her and, and, and kind of building my own, my own practice with her.
00:06:38:11 - 00:06:40:16
Shormila
And Ricardo, what what about you?
00:06:40:18 - 00:07:05:21
Riccardo
Well, I think, I think I obviously I was at Iowa between 2000 and 7, 2010. That's where I met Graham. By the way, is I, I've think I can call him a friend. We stayed in touch since, so I got to work with Graham and obviously because I was, I was meeting all of the law firms, and Judy was, you know, one of the people I used to meet, as on, on various transaction.
00:07:05:23 - 00:07:15:26
Riccardo
But I really got to know Judy, I think was the Eglinton, I think was the Eglinton, tidbit that we did, back in the day. Show me laughing. You were the two of. I think you were in the.
00:07:16:00 - 00:07:21:06
Shormila
I was handing out paper clips. Very different, very different time.
00:07:21:09 - 00:07:54:14
Riccardo
And, Yeah. And, that that's where I got to work with her and, you know, always sat across the table and out across the negotiating table from Judy. I think we did, Eglinton more than we did. I think one area as well where I got to work with Judy quite a bit. But I think what I remember most fondly about Judy and I think were around the time of the year of the Sue to be free and was always the seat to be free, event the Blakes used to host at their offices on the Sunday night, and it was a fairly intimate event.
00:07:54:15 - 00:08:17:17
Riccardo
You know, people are was kept people coming in for the conference. We would gather a Blake's and she was always a gracious host. And and even before we started working on transaction together, we got to know because you had time to catch up. And as I said, she's always being welcome, even even on the negotiating table. I mean, I don't think there was a more, more gracious negotiator than her.
00:08:17:20 - 00:08:46:25
Riccardo
I never felt never, never felt that you were across different tables. You always felt that you were trying to accomplish a common good, even though there were, during the bid, the work, commercial issues that had to be resolved during contracts, execution. Also, you know, there were issues to be resolved, but always in a collaborative and, and fun way so that those are my memories of Judy and, and, you know, being a small industry, we always used to bump into each other.
00:08:46:25 - 00:08:51:16
Riccardo
So always great, fond memories. Of her.
00:08:51:19 - 00:09:03:20
Shormila
Well, and so you both have this common theme of sort of grace and effervescence at the same time, which is a, a unique duo, especially for a lawyer. If I could generalize. Sorry, Mary.
00:09:03:20 - 00:09:05:12
Marianne
Yes. No no no no no.
00:09:05:14 - 00:09:19:05
Shormila
And sort of how did how did that her personality. It sounds like you saw a lot of similarities with her. Like how did that shape you as a lawyer in your career and her being kind of against the grain as well?
00:09:19:07 - 00:09:49:16
Marianne
It definitely shaped a lot of who I am, as a lawyer, as a person, you know, first and foremost, Judy was laser focused on serving clients, right. And that was the number one thing for her. Not in an aggressive way, you know, in a collaborative way before we had collaborative contracts. But, Judy was always, you know, Ricardo, you touched on this, right?
00:09:49:16 - 00:10:22:13
Marianne
She was always trying to find a solution to things very commercially focused and constructive. She didn't, like to pick fights for the sake of picking a fight. She was always looking for a solution, but also in the best interests of our clients. And she really taught me how to be, a service provider, right? Be responsive, but also supportive and recognizing that our clients, you know, we had to put their interests first.
00:10:22:13 - 00:11:01:24
Marianne
And, you know, from a personal perspective, that means sacrifice. But she also found that so tremendously rewarding, right? The ability to, to service clients and do a great job. And she always wanted to be the best. Right? Judy was so competitive in everything. I, we when my wife and I got married, we had a hockey themed wedding because she and I are both big sports fans and so, we rented an air hockey table, so our guests could play some air hockey and during the reception.
00:11:01:24 - 00:11:24:05
Marianne
And I'll never forget. And it's a story we retell all the time. And Judy and I would retell it, to each other to make ourselves laugh. She, she had a super competitive air hockey match with one of her grandsons, Mike. At one point I said to her, Judy, like, are you not gonna let him win? And she's like, no way.
00:11:24:05 - 00:11:25:02
Marianne
I'm not letting you.
00:11:25:04 - 00:11:26:13
Shormila
Play right.
00:11:26:15 - 00:11:49:29
Marianne
Know I'm beating him and I. And that was her right? She just she just loved to be the best. She loved for us to work on the best projects. She always wanted to do the egg lanterns and the Ra's and the Pan Am game facilities and those. That's what really, really inspired her and inspired the rest of us, right?
00:11:50:06 - 00:12:20:06
Marianne
But she also never lost her sense of humor and, you know, often at her expense or her family's expense or our expense, even Graham's expense long after, long after he had moved on from the Blake's team. But really, she used that warmth of her personality to break the ice when we met new people or, you know, to break tense moments.
00:12:20:10 - 00:12:46:28
Marianne
You know, in those negotiations, Ricardo, in those CMX, things get heated sometimes. But Judy always brought us back to, like, a human level with a joke or a funny story from the weekend or something, and that I think so much of that warmth is, is something we've all, you know, myself and my team, we've tried to carry forward as her legacy.
00:12:47:00 - 00:13:02:16
Shormila
And is that is the warmth also kind of a a mainstay in I think Ricardo was you who mentioned her championing of diversity and allyship. Like, how did that play into it and what was her sort of impact there?
00:13:02:28 - 00:13:48:16
Marianne
Yeah, I mean, definitely Judy, was a champion of diversity. She was, an ally before we had the nomenclature about what an ally is. She used her, power, authority, influence, not just selfishly, but also to promote, women, people of color, anyone who was who might have felt, you know, that they didn't belong in the boardroom or, around the table talking about tough, tough infrastructure type issues.
00:13:48:18 - 00:14:18:01
Marianne
She, you know, she really did impact, so, so many people in that way. And I think, again, especially in an industry, dominated traditionally, by men in power, in, in places of authority, often times, especially at the beginning, she probably, you know, she was maybe the only woman in the room and the only senior woman almost every time.
00:14:18:04 - 00:14:49:20
Marianne
And so she, she never really passed up a moment to lift up others or give others encouragement. And I think she, she has, you know, and in our own team, we're a group of strong women. And she really promoted that. And she supported us in that way. And I don't think I know there are a number because people tell me, you know, there are a number of people in this industry.
00:14:49:22 - 00:14:50:10
Shormila
Who.
00:14:50:16 - 00:15:01:11
Marianne
Judy has touched, you know, substantively, but also as a friend and a mentor and a and a support as well.
00:15:01:13 - 00:15:29:23
Riccardo
Marianne, you, I think I mean, she was she's a figure was a great mentor to you. And I think you you've been a little modest on, on also how you have trailed Bray blazed the industry with her support. I think, you know, I think in terms of diversity, I think that that's an important story to tell. How you have a broken, you know, I don't know, glass ceilings but other ceilings as well.
00:15:29:23 - 00:15:29:28
Marianne
Yeah.
00:15:30:01 - 00:15:39:10
Riccardo
I think thanks also to the support that Judy provided you. I'm, I'm privy to that story. And I think it's a story that is worth telling for sure.
00:15:39:13 - 00:16:09:09
Marianne
And I, I, I can say with certainty, and I tell this to young people who are, you know, wanting to join the legal profession. I, I definitely did not imagined that I would, would still be here, if I didn't have Judy support. So when I, you know, when I joined, Blake, I was not out.
00:16:09:09 - 00:16:38:23
Marianne
And because I thought I don't fit in to this world. I didn't come from a business background. No one in my family are lawyers, and I thought, I. I already feel different enough. You know, I didn't see a lot, a lot of representation from the LGBTQ community at the time, either. And so for me, it was difficult.
00:16:38:26 - 00:17:12:17
Marianne
But, Judy, you know, she is she is a big reason why I felt supported and comfortable, to be out at work. She she always, was a tremendous ally in that way. And and she did use her power and her, you know, her tremendous political instincts to, to help me navigate that internally at the firm with clients and others.
00:17:12:19 - 00:18:02:24
Marianne
And so I, I definitely could not be who I am, feel might feel that I could be my authentic self at work. Without Judy early on recognizing that that was something that was important to me and something she wanted to be supportive of. And I'm not the only one. I mean, she yes, she she she there are many people with similar stories to me, but for me it's very it's very personal and and definitely is a large part of why I've, I've been able to, to now use my voice, and to pay that forward by being someone that others can see themselves in, you know, in, on, on Bay Street, in
00:18:02:24 - 00:18:18:10
Marianne
a traditional, in a traditional, corporate environment. But also in the infrastructure space as well. So without Judy's leadership and support, I definitely wouldn't have been able to do it.
00:18:18:13 - 00:18:37:11
Shormila
That's incredible. And do you know, like similar to you, Marianne, were you felt sort of other and didn't really see a path for you to do. You know, if she ever had those same sentiments when she was sort of starting out and, you know, it's always intimidating when you see someone sort of mid in their career and like, they must have always been like this, you know.
00:18:37:11 - 00:18:43:28
Marianne
And so she I think that's part of why we got along. She always kind of felt like an outsider.
00:18:44:00 - 00:18:45:02
Shormila
Yeah.
00:18:45:12 - 00:19:19:28
Marianne
Even when she was so clearly not anymore. Right. Even when she was, so well respected and, and, revered internally and externally, she, she definitely always had a bit of that outsider perspective and and maybe not, not wanting to take that for granted. And I think that's part of what, resonated with people as well, is that she, she never really lost that.
00:19:19:28 - 00:19:51:20
Marianne
Right. She sort of. And that's why I think she could relate to people so well. Can I, can I share a story actually, that I, I, I, that was shared with us and I'm just going to read it because, it's so it's so perfect. So a couple of days after Judy passed, I, my team and I got this note, from a senior leader at one of our clients kind of reflecting on Judy, and I can't.
00:19:51:23 - 00:20:20:14
Marianne
I can't read the whole read the whole thing, but there's, like, there's a part of the story that's right on this, topic. So I'd like to share it, and I hope, I hope the person listens to this podcast, and, and remembers this. So I remember my first time being in a room with Judy down at Blake's back in 2013, when we kicked off the RFP for Eglinton.
00:20:20:17 - 00:20:47:12
Marianne
I knew the I knew Eglinton was going to feature prominently in the podcast staccato. A room I personally didn't feel qualified to be in at the time. Judy opened up the meeting with a short story, and I remember it made me feel a bit more at ease. And immediately created an environment of welcome. This in that specific moment.
00:20:47:12 - 00:21:07:00
Marianne
And for me personally, it gave me confidence to contribute going forward. I went on to learn that this was just Judy being Judy, and she would always have a story to share. At the start of the meeting, it didn't matter what your background was, where you came from, who your employer was, or whether or not you were wearing a tie.
00:21:07:03 - 00:21:34:04
Marianne
Judy put everyone at ease and valued your input, and I think that I'm so grateful for that story because that was her right. She would she would not just spend the whole meeting only talking to the senior people. She wouldn't only ask the senior folks what they thought, right. She would make sure that people were part of the conversation.
00:21:34:04 - 00:22:09:16
Marianne
And I think that, just the ability to do that. And we think back to how many people were in those rooms and who those personalities were and everything it was easy, very easy to be intimidated. And I think she just, she really felt the, the obligation and the, the, the desire to make sure that everyone felt included and valued, in those spaces.
00:22:09:18 - 00:22:32:04
Riccardo
Yeah. That story so relatable a bit. I mean, that that's exactly that's exactly how I felt always. And, you know, 2015, I was probably already on my way up. But like in my old days, like I was still a junior, right? And I every time I bumped into Judy, I never felt I was a junior. I mean, it's extremely relatable.
00:22:32:07 - 00:22:56:10
Shormila
Oh, wow. That's that's incredible. And in terms of your mentoring relationship, how did that sort of evolve over time? Did you ever have any disagreements? Did where was it sort of an organic email thing for us as via people? What to your face? But I loved that little sort of reaction.
00:22:56:12 - 00:23:27:01
Marianne
Yeah. So, you know, over time, our relationship definitely evolved. She was my mentor to the end. You know, I can talk to her about anything. You know, work wise or, life wise. You know, she, even even when we weren't necessarily working together all the time, as intensely as we were, we would always talk every day.
00:23:27:03 - 00:23:56:16
Marianne
And I could definitely bounce things off her, but also, yes, I mean, our relationship did change, and she and I disagreed about stuff all the time, but that was okay. You know, we we didn't really hold those things against each other. We, you know, we would have different, maybe ways of approaching a problem or an issue. And I think we appreciated that about each other.
00:23:56:16 - 00:24:19:15
Marianne
And, what was super cool to me as I got more senior is, you know, when you're a junior, you go to your mentor for advice and, you know, you bounce things off them. But then I was like, oh, yeah, it started going the other way, too, right? Judy would bounce things off me. And when she started doing that, I thought like, oh my God, why?
00:24:19:17 - 00:24:46:05
Marianne
Why would you care what I think? But she sure did. And that that was also tremendously like those years were looking back now, those were tremendously important years for me to to realize that, yeah, we were brainstorming about issues and she thought my perspective was important and she always gave me credit. Right. And meetings. And again, this not it might seem obvious to people, but it's not like, right.
00:24:46:05 - 00:25:07:04
Marianne
Like sometimes senior people, they don't they don't necessarily want to give other people credit because they think it takes away from them. Right. But if I had if, if we went to a meeting and somebody said, hey, Judy, that's a great solution to our problem, she would say, well, yeah, it's this is Marianne's idea. I'm just articulating it.
00:25:07:04 - 00:25:34:16
Marianne
Or she would say, Marianne has a great solution to your problem. She's going to articulate it to you. Right? She wasn't, she wasn't shy about doing that. And she was she, she didn't want to take credit for for my ideas or other people's ideas, which, again, is such a a great, leadership skill. Right, that I think now that I'm more senior, I have to remember that too.
00:25:34:16 - 00:25:41:00
Marianne
Right. Because those moments I can I can remember some of them. Right. They were that impactful and meaningful.
00:25:41:02 - 00:25:58:13
Shormila
Yeah. That's what I was just going to ask is how how has that influenced how you are as a leader and as a mentor? And you sort of started answering, are there other things that maybe your personal instinct was used to be something else, but she sort of influenced or molded you to do something a little different?
00:25:58:15 - 00:26:32:27
Marianne
Yeah, I would say, you know, Judy. Judy had a very good diplomatic way of dealing with issues. Right? Be very, client issues or personality issues or other things. And she would always talk to me about that. Right? Marianne, you know, you need to be more diplomatic. These she would say, like the last 5 or 6 years, she would say, these are your these are your diplomatic years, right?
00:26:32:27 - 00:27:04:06
Marianne
You need a senior person now. You have to smooth things over. You need to, you know, try and try and find a way forward. Put your ego aside and try and find a way forward and that sort of stuff. So those were good lessons because she was very competitive. But like I said, she didn't. She always wanted to find a solution to problems she didn't want to just fight about things.
00:27:04:06 - 00:27:37:16
Marianne
And sometimes I get into the fight too much. And I still do that now. And now I can hear when I don't actually hear her voice. I can still hear her voice telling me I need to be more diplomatic. So for sure I can. I know there are parts of my leadership style that I take from her, from other people too, as we share, you know, we throughout and I've been fortunate to be surrounded by a number of great leaders, but we all take those things as well from.
00:27:37:19 - 00:27:40:07
Marianne
Yeah, from the from the people around us.
00:27:40:10 - 00:27:42:23
Shormila
And someone who likes. So, you.
00:27:42:25 - 00:28:05:01
Riccardo
Know, it's good to just jump in because I mean, you know, I think one thing I've learned about negotiation is that you're a you're a successful negotiator when your opponent doesn't feel they're losing. And and I think that's always how I felt negotiating with Judy. So that tells you, you know, the the diplomat diplomacy is the key to successful negotiation.
00:28:05:01 - 00:28:27:04
Riccardo
Right. And so she was a master of that. And then you were making people comfortable in the boardroom and irrespective of the challenges, situation or issues that were discussed and always leaving the room feeling okay, we we might not have got everything I wanted, but I don't feel like I, I lost, right? You never felt you lost the negotiation.
00:28:27:07 - 00:28:48:08
Marianne
And she had this great expression, right? She would always say like, you know, you in a negotiation and Mary and you, you have to think 2 or 3 steps ahead. You can't you can't get in a position where you've taken the client out to the end of the pier, and there's nowhere to go but to jump off. Right.
00:28:48:08 - 00:29:18:15
Marianne
You have to think far ahead. You don't want to ever put the client in the corner, and there's no good solution. And people don't come away feeling at least like they they won or they didn't lose as much as they were going to. Right. And so I do think that was definite a skill, I mean, by the number of people who routinely sat across the table from her but had as much respect for her as our clients.
00:29:18:15 - 00:29:27:13
Marianne
Right. And I think that's just such a testament to her skills as a lawyer, but also her, her, her personality as well.
00:29:27:16 - 00:29:45:00
Shormila
Yeah, I was just going to build on that a little bit. Not again, not knowing her, but reading the commentary that the response of when you had posted about her one year, a commemoration of the one year of her passing. And I mean this in the nicest way, you wouldn't know she was a lawyer. The way that people were responding.
00:29:45:00 - 00:30:19:21
Shormila
It was all very personable and sort of as a friend and a mentor and, you know, sort of a champion of individuals, I it was never really about about the profession, which can define some people who are as successful as someone like Judy was. So I just find that that was so striking to me that it was, so like everything that you both have said is really kind of carried through in, in the even that she's not here in, in kind of the memories that people have held is, is really distilled into the feeling and the, the kind of relationship she's had, which is incredible for sure.
00:30:19:21 - 00:30:47:08
Marianne
And I think the great part and we're we're so grateful for everyone who has, messaged or commented or passed along their sentiments. I think she would have absolutely loved if someone read all of those and did not immediately think she was a lawyer, right? She would have loved that because that because first and foremost, she wanted to be remembered as a as a person, right?
00:30:48:07 - 00:31:00:21
Marianne
A mother and a grandmother and a friend and an ally and a leader. And yes, she was a really good lawyer, but that didn't define entirely who she was.
00:31:01:24 - 00:31:25:18
Riccardo
I'd like to jump on that. And so I think we, we said we celebrate a leadership achievement. But I think I mean she was first and foremost a lawyer. And I think if I remember correctly, when I was a young project coordinator there, I was always introduced to her as the procurement lawyer. Right. And I think she was, a world renowned procurement lawyer, I believe.
00:31:25:21 - 00:31:46:06
Riccardo
I believe she did a lot of work for the world Bank in the Middle East, in the sector, if my memory serves me right. Right. So she was she was, so big trailblazer. In procurement. So maybe you can can. And I'm not procurement. I've done a lot of procurement, but I'm not procurement expert. So maybe celebrating that part of, life as well.
00:31:46:08 - 00:32:18:17
Marianne
Yeah, she absolutely was a procurement lawyer. She loved procurement. From back in her days when she started at the region of Ottawa. Carleton. She worked on some procurements there, and she got the bug for it. She was most assuredly a trailblazer in the Canadian procurement, but also, as you said, worldwide. Ricardo. She drafted template procurement documents for the world Bank to use in their water and wastewater projects.
00:32:18:17 - 00:33:11:02
Marianne
She was often called on even after we stopped doing a lot of work internationally and focused more domestically. She would often get called on by international clients, for procurement advice. She won the 2013 Procurement Lawyer of the world, essentially award and she was definitely always ranked highly among lawyers and chambers and other publications. She would routinely get called for second opinions on procurement things, especially, you know, when people got in a bind, she was really a technically very good procurement lawyer, but also very creative, right?
00:33:11:02 - 00:33:39:18
Marianne
Very creative. And again, along the theme that we said sometimes procurement is kind of rigid, right? It's black or white. You either did what you were supposed to do or you didn't do what you were supposed to do, and you're going to get disqualified. But those are not good procurement outcomes sometimes, right. Disqualification might be the thing that the procurement documents say you should do, but maybe that's not in the best interest of the client.
00:33:39:18 - 00:34:06:02
Marianne
Maybe that's not the solution to that problem. And so Judy was often called on for some creativity, but also in structuring procurements. Right. We did a number of first of the kind procurements. We helped the Ontario government procure nuclear reactors. We worked, as I said, we worked on a lot of the the early P3 is when when those procurements were in their infancy.
00:34:06:02 - 00:34:34:22
Marianne
And there were a number of things. I mean, we started doing CMS. People hadn't really done that in Ontario before. So there are a number of things that we take for granted now that she was really instrumental in helping clients put together a framework that respected Canadian procurement law and norms, but also allowed the clients to achieve their objectives.
00:34:34:22 - 00:34:39:21
Marianne
And I think that's what made her, an outstanding procurement lawyer.
00:34:39:29 - 00:35:10:02
Shormila
Well, that's just I mean, I think we're both sort of like. A little bit stunned at the impact of, you know, things like CMS and and even templates just coming off of C2, B3, you know, hearing repeatedly and a lot of the sessions how actually the UK and others now turn to us for sort of the gold standard and a lot of the terms and conditions and, and contracts, it's incredible to see the leaps and strides that have been made in the last, you know, decade or two in the business.
00:35:10:02 - 00:35:16:02
Shormila
And the fact that she actually wrote the words on the pages is, is, is remarkable.
00:35:16:07 - 00:35:20:09
Riccardo
Laughing, Marianne wrote, we.
00:35:20:11 - 00:35:25:05
Shormila
Sure, she said shell, where should. Okay.
00:35:25:08 - 00:35:28:00
Marianne
I'm sure we debated it. Yeah.
00:35:28:02 - 00:35:40:19
Shormila
That's incredible. And then it sounds like it's still like it. You know, she didn't rest on our laurels. There was still evolution, creativity, innovations throughout her career.
00:35:40:21 - 00:36:12:11
Marianne
Yeah, for sure. She was so driven to just she, you know, she did not rest on our laurels. She did not kind of, you know, she was she was coming close to retirement, but she definitely had retirement plans that did not involve just golfing, and spending time with her family. Right. Like she she talked about other ways she could give back to the community, but also to keep, keep being a leader in the procurement space.
00:36:12:11 - 00:36:36:20
Marianne
Right. She was also a great teacher. She had taught she had taught some courses at Carleton University. And and she was like a natural educator. Right. Again, so many people still to this day say to me, I mean, Judi taught me everything I know about procurement or super events or force majeure clauses or right, like it. Just whatever.
00:36:36:20 - 00:37:11:12
Marianne
She had that natural right. And so I have no doubt that had she not passed away in her retirement, she would continue as an educator because she was just so good at it. And she loved explaining it. Right. She loved sharing her knowledge with others. And I have no doubt. And, you know, clients still again, would be so, so generous in sharing all of the things that she taught them.
00:37:11:12 - 00:37:37:08
Marianne
And she would be so proud, right? She even in a meeting if a client said, you know what, I think that's a problem because of X or Y, she'd be so pleased that they had been listening to her through the years. You know, it just brought her so much joy to, to see that she had impacted them in that way and passed along her knowledge.
00:37:37:08 - 00:38:07:25
Marianne
And I think that knowledge is one of her lasting legacies, too. Right? I had the fortune with my colleagues Elise and Stephanie. Earlier this fall, we went to the Ontario Public Buyers Association annual conference. So that's a meeting of public procurement professionals in Ontario. Duty would affectionately refer to as the procurement geeks in Ontario, and those are her people.
00:38:07:25 - 00:38:28:25
Marianne
She would always say that to them, you're my people. And they've actually created an award in her honor for young leaders in public procurement, which is such a good and faithful tribute to her. So we went to present the inaugural one of those awards.
00:38:28:27 - 00:38:29:24
Shormila
Being offered.
00:38:29:26 - 00:39:00:20
Marianne
To a talented procurement professional, young procurement professional who had never met Judy, but who I am certain Judy would have loved. And at that meeting, you know, and just meeting people who had worked with Judy for 20 or 25 years, you know, just hearing their stories about the impact she had on why they're passionate about being procurement professionals.
00:39:00:20 - 00:39:12:28
Marianne
It was, you know, because she had this contagious enthusiasm for procurement and, so that that was fantastic. And and what a beautiful tribute as well.
00:39:13:00 - 00:39:13:06
Shormila
To.
00:39:13:06 - 00:39:15:13
Marianne
Her from from her people.
00:39:15:15 - 00:39:37:10
Shormila
Well, and and even though she left us much too soon, do you think she had the opportunity to feel like a master builder? Do you think, like you said, you know, did it sink in sort of the full circle moments of of the teaching, the materials and the, you know, the assets being built and, you know, things the ribbons being cut, like, how did it do you think resonate with her, her impact on the industry?
00:39:37:18 - 00:40:08:00
Marianne
For sure, I think it did. I mean, she always had a hunger for more, but I think, you know, to see some of the big projects we worked on come to fruition, but also, yes, just to see the pride in the next generation of folks at IO and Metrolinx, but also in the bidding community. It was really special to her, and she did see that impact for sure.
00:40:08:02 - 00:40:30:11
Marianne
You know, it's it's unfortunate, yes, that she couldn't see everything. But yes, I mean, we we took great pride. And that's one of the things she and I shared a love of working on infrastructure projects. Because you can go visit, you know, you can go tour the things when they're finished. She always loved doing that as as do I.
00:40:30:11 - 00:40:50:24
Marianne
Right? We put our put our boots, our work boots on and and and go and see things. And so yes, for sure she did she did get to to experience that. I'm with always with some humility though. But for sure she did.
00:40:50:26 - 00:40:52:19
Riccardo
I guess we miss Judy.
00:40:52:21 - 00:40:59:10
Marianne
Yeah, we sure do.
00:40:59:13 - 00:41:09:28
Riccardo
What's what's what's the the I going to ask a personal question? What's your fondest memory of Judy?
00:41:10:00 - 00:41:47:09
Marianne
Yeah. I have lots, Ricardo. You know, she was for me the pride she took in me. I mean, when I made partner at Blake, she generously hosted a dinner for myself and some friends. And my parents. She was just so gracious like that. And she was as proud of me as if I was her own daughter. In that moment.
00:41:47:09 - 00:42:26:23
Marianne
Right. And what that meant to me, what it meant to my mom and dad. It it. Yeah, that's probably one of my my fondest Judy memories, one of my funniest Judy memories. And I have a million is so. All the law firms do various charitable things. Right. So Judy and I did two things of note before I made partner, and when I was still an associate capable of being fired from the firm, we decided to play a practical joke on our managing partner.
00:42:26:25 - 00:42:27:24
Shormila
Oh, gosh.
00:42:27:26 - 00:43:06:10
Marianne
Who is a good friend of Judy's. And it was around Breast Cancer Awareness Month, so we decided to paint Rod's office pink like bubble gum pink. And of course, in my mind I was like, for sure I'm getting fired for this, right? It's no way you can paint the managing partner's office paint and survive at Blake's. So we did it on like a weekend, and he came in the next week and he actually embraced it and he kept it in his office for a while.
00:43:06:10 - 00:43:43:08
Marianne
And it was pretty, pretty funny. And then Judy and I, what would have been her last holiday party? We didn't know she and I again for charity. So. So the way you the best way to raise money in a law firm is to identify people who are willing to embarrass themselves, to raise money. And so we were in a competition where if you lost, you had to to perform at the The firm holiday party.
00:43:43:08 - 00:43:44:05
Shormila
Oh, gosh.
00:43:44:07 - 00:44:15:02
Marianne
And so losing meant, raising the most money. So. Right. Okay. Hundreds and thousands of dollars to see you embarrass yourself. So Judy and I ended up winning that particular competition and singing at the holiday party, which was hilarious. We decided to wear, like, Hamilton tie, cat jerseys and hard hats because we just leaned right into it. Right.
00:44:15:04 - 00:44:39:05
Marianne
So those are probably my two funniest Judy memories, but I, I probably have tons more. But but yes. And that's. That was exactly, exactly her too. Right. Just being out there, but also for all the right reasons, and not being afraid to laugh a little bit at herself either.
00:44:39:07 - 00:44:50:02
Riccardo
I think that was a great story. And by the way, I have to say, because I don't think I knew you in the early days when I knew Judy, because you were in the background. But yeah.
00:44:50:09 - 00:44:53:09
Marianne
Every ending of paper clips.
00:44:53:11 - 00:45:13:05
Riccardo
I have, I mean, I got to know you because you would not stop talking about you even to people that didn't know you. Right? Marianne here. Marianne. There. So eventually I put two and two together, and I got to see you this year eventually. And and, Yeah. You you yeah, you you were there. You were there.
00:45:13:08 - 00:45:29:09
Shormila
And maybe as a as a closing question, Marianne, you know, congratulations. You recently got promoted as well. And you were a master builder in your own right. How do you think Judy would feel about sort of this new stride in your career?
00:45:29:11 - 00:46:06:08
Marianne
Unabashed pride. She would be so pleased. And yeah, she she was my number one fan, so I have no doubt she would be so pleased. Pleased to see her protege continuing to lead, and also pleased that her legacy is carrying on because we myself, Elise and staff Megan, the rest of our team where we're part of her legacy as well, and I think she would have been super pleased by that.
00:46:06:11 - 00:46:11:23
Shormila
I'm glad no one can see the video because we're all almost crying. She's having it.
00:46:11:25 - 00:46:17:16
Marianne
I, I appreciate it, sorry, I, I try to hold it together.
00:46:17:16 - 00:46:25:14
Shormila
But no, I've never even met her. And I'm like, on the verge of tears. This is she's really has a an impact on on everybody.
00:46:25:17 - 00:46:27:04
Marianne
Yeah.
00:46:27:06 - 00:46:46:03
Riccardo
Well, Marianne, I want to thank you, for for graciously agreeing to do this, this this this is being even better than ever. Envision this. This is, this is a great podcast. I'm sure there's going to be a lot of people. Pleased to hear this. Sharmila, thank you for co-hosting again.
00:46:46:10 - 00:46:52:00
Shormila
Thank you so much, Marianne, for your time. This was, really impactful. It's going to stay with me for a long time.
00:46:52:02 - 00:47:08:05
Marianne
And super appreciate it. And thank you for including her. I think. Yeah, she was a master builder. And so it seems fitting to have included her even in this way. So, I really appreciate it.
00:47:08:07 - 00:47:17:06
Riccardo
Okay. And on that note, thank you very much. And, will be here. We'll be listening to the next episode soon. Bye now. Okay, okay. Have a great.
00:47:17:06 - 00:47:21:03
Shormila
Weekend.