In this episode of Navigating Major Programmes, Riccardo Cosentino sits down with Annie Goodchild, a passionate advocate for inclusivity in major projects. As a trans, non-binary professional in the infrastructure industry, Annie shares insights on industry resilience, stakeholder management, and the value of diverse perspectives in shaping successful projects. The duo discusses all this, plus the role of public inquiries in major projects. Annie Goodchild brings a wealth of experience in communications and stakeholder outreach, driving strategic initiatives for complex infrastructure projects across Canada. As the Director of Communications and Stakeholder Outreach at Kiewit, they currently lead efforts on Ottawa’s Confederation Line extensions, focusing on building essential relationships for project success. Known for their commitment to teamwork, learning, and connection, Annie believes that true progress happens when everyone moves forward together. “We are the eyes and ears in many ways of how the project's going to do everywhere else, but in the very boardroom that it's executed from, and that those outside forces, the climate around the boardroom affects the boardroom more than sometimes they'd like. So let us help. Let us be in the room. Let us share our understanding of what's coming and help us plan a mitigation around any problems we might see, because that's our ultimate benefit to the major project." – Annie Goodchild
In this episode of Navigating Major Programmes, Riccardo Cosentino sits down with Annie Goodchild, a passionate advocate for inclusivity in major projects. As a trans, non-binary professional in the infrastructure industry, Annie shares insights on industry resilience, stakeholder management, and the value of diverse perspectives in shaping successful projects. The duo discusses all this, plus the role of public inquiries in major projects.
Annie Goodchild brings a wealth of experience in communications and stakeholder outreach, driving strategic initiatives for complex infrastructure projects across Canada. As the Director of Communications and Stakeholder Outreach at Kiewit, they currently lead efforts on Ottawa’s Confederation Line extensions, focusing on building essential relationships for project success. Known for their commitment to teamwork, learning, and connection, Annie believes that true progress happens when everyone moves forward together.
“We are the eyes and ears in many ways of how the project's going to do everywhere else, but in the very boardroom that it's executed from, and that those outside forces, the climate around the boardroom affects the boardroom more than sometimes they'd like. So let us help. Let us be in the room. Let us share our understanding of what's coming and help us plan a mitigation around any problems we might see, because that's our ultimate benefit to the major project." – Annie Goodchild
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00;00;00;00 - 00;00;33;27
Riccardo
We are listening to navigator major programs. The podcast that aims to elevate the conversations happening in the infrastructure industry and inspire you to have a more efficient approach within it. I'm your host, Ricardo Cosentino. I bring over 20 years of major program management experience. Most recently, I graduated from Oxford University's business school, which shook my belief when it comes to navigating major problem.
00;00;33;29 - 00;01;02;04
Riccardo
Now it's time to shake yours. Join me in each episode as I press the industry experts about the complexity of major program management, emerging digital trends, and the critical leadership required to approach these multi-billion dollar projects. Let's see what the conversation takes us. Hello everyone, and welcome to a new episode on navigating major programs. I'm here today with a really interesting guest, Annie Goodchild.
00;01;02;06 - 00;01;06;09
Riccardo
And, just going to ask Annie to introduce themselves.
00;01;06;11 - 00;01;29;04
Annie
Hi, Ricardo. Thanks for having me. Yeah, I am fairly new to the major programs world, the major projects world. I work here in Canada and I'm a trans non-binary person working in an industry that might need some more trans non-binary people in it. And we can talk more about that. But I'm five years in the industry. I started my career for 15 years.
00;01;29;04 - 00;02;01;08
Annie
I was in municipal government and what drew me over to major projects was an opportunity on the client side of a public private partnership project here in the nation's capital, and that was the opportunity to work client side in stakeholder relations and communications. And I took the opportunity and didn't think much of it. But I was certainly bitten by a bug, fell in love with construction, fell in love with major heavy infrastructure and the major projects model which is so complex and has so many moving pieces.
00;02;01;08 - 00;02;32;17
Annie
I saw a future where I'll never stop learning and that was really exciting to me. I know I worked a long career in civil service and I loved every minute of that career, but the opportunity to be always learning, always seeing something new was really enticing. And so I went from the client side and was lucky enough to also come over to the contractor side and got a whole new perspective, was able to bring some of my knowledge of the client's needs and wants, and the communication stakeholder world is very client focused.
00;02;32;17 - 00;02;39;13
Annie
So that was a great transition point for me. And yeah, for the last three years I've been on the contractor side.
00;02;39;16 - 00;02;52;11
Riccardo
So you I mean, according to your LinkedIn profile, you were with the city of Ottawa for 15 years, and then you actually worked in the major project side of the city. Only five years.
00;02;52;13 - 00;02;55;19
Annie
Oh, no. All together. All together. Five years.
00;02;55;21 - 00;02;57;01
Riccardo
All together. Okay.
00;02;57;02 - 00;02;58;09
Annie
I'm very new.
00;02;58;11 - 00;03;01;23
Riccardo
So what were you doing before construction is actually quite interesting.
00;03;01;25 - 00;03;35;21
Annie
Well, I studied recreation, which is a pretty niche field of study, and was able to work the major providers of recreation in the North American recreation model or municipality. So I was able to get a job with the city of Ottawa here. And I worked in recreation for a number of years. And then you know, the really nice thing about a municipal government or working in civil service, and I see a lot of parallels in heavy construction as well, is the opportunity to work in multiple departments and get multiple sort of points of view on the services provided by the entity or the municipal government in my case.
00;03;35;24 - 00;03;55;25
Annie
And so I got to work in our traffic department. I got to work in our solid waste department. So garbage and recycling and yeah, my step into construction was what was called the rail Construction Project, which is the client department managing our light rail projects here in Ottawa. We had two going on, you know, starting at the time that I joined.
00;03;55;25 - 00;04;20;27
Annie
And we were just wrapping up our first inaugural, light rail project here. So it was a really exciting time. We were coming out of one project, starting another. So sort of got to see the tail end of that major project and the starting of our two consecutive projects running side by side here in the city. But yeah, started in recreation, running community centers and working with low income communities and providing sport, recreation, very different world big switch, very different.
00;04;20;27 - 00;04;38;20
Riccardo
Because obviously I know this project is I can recognize it. So but I'm going to call them out having you first. But you saw the tail end of the Confederation Line completion and probably the beginning of Trillium and East extension, East and west extension. Is that correct? In the city of Ottawa?
00;04;38;23 - 00;05;05;20
Annie
That's right. Yeah. Our main Confederation Line is a sort of backbone system that runs through our downtown core. And then in 2019, ground was broken on both the North-South, which was replacing our old train line. We had a diesel passenger line that worked in the city since 2001 was we were rebuilding and extending that. So worked on that project, as well as the East-West extensions, which are taking our backbone system further into our very big.
00;05;05;23 - 00;05;14;00
Annie
We have a very geographically large city here in Ottawa. So taking us to the far reaches of our of our city, making sure more of our residents get to access the great system.
00;05;14;02 - 00;05;36;21
Riccardo
Yeah. For good, for bad. I'm very, very familiar with, all those projects I, I been working on continuously working on the Confederation Line. I was there during the bid in 2011 as being. It's been a long time on that project, and I was obviously involved with the Trillium Line bid. And obviously I'm currently still involved in the Trillium Line.
00;05;36;28 - 00;06;17;08
Riccardo
And for the extensions, I was part of the negotiation team because obviously there's going to be a single maintainer for both current configuration line and extension. And I was I was involved with the negotiation of the of the phase two when my contract just full disclosure, just being put in some context to, you know, you've seen, it's quite an interesting perspective where you had so brand new to the industry, and you jumped feet first in some pretty challenging project, especially because also Covid hit you really where are the forefront of a crisis?
00;06;17;08 - 00;06;41;28
Riccardo
I mean, especially with Covid and, you know, Confederation that you probably were not involved in the operational Confederation Line, but that there were issues there, the Trillium and extension, I mean, I think was, the pandemic was unprecedented. I don't think anybody that ever envisioned that. And so you as a stakeholder, management person, communication person, you had to pressure, you had to overcome some pretty big challenges.
00;06;42;00 - 00;07;04;16
Annie
Well, we didn't know how to talk about any of it. You know, we had just sort of come into our comfort zone with talking about the project. So the project had started in 2019, but by the time 2020 ran around and I'm talking about the stage two projects, and of course, when I'm working there, I'm still a part of the department that's operating Confederation Line, although my focus was primarily stage two.
00;07;04;18 - 00;07;30;22
Annie
You know, we worked side by side with the people who are trying to figure out an operation for a almost non-existent clientele overnight. You know, a ridership went from pack to trains every day, a very successful system in terms of getting it functioning to serve as many people as possible. And I know that Confederation Line had its issues with reliability at the beginning, but we were really coming into it, and then the whole world had to sort of stop.
00;07;30;22 - 00;07;49;04
Annie
And then so not only did we have to figure out, you know, in communications, there's the what I call the big C communications, which is how we talk about it to the rest of the world. We talk about the project, how we talk about the work we're doing. But then there's the small C communications, which happens inside, you know, all of our our workers are out in the field unsure of what we've got to do.
00;07;49;04 - 00;08;08;14
Annie
Our teams had to, you know, deploy Covid safety plans like the small C, the internal communication lines got turned right up to full blast in a way that no one could have anticipated. You know, we were I think we were lucky in the sense that the world's focus was on making sure people were safe and we could keep as many people healthy as possible.
00;08;08;21 - 00;08;27;24
Annie
But we still had to build these things. And the government had made it very clear at the time, with its priorities, that building these major infrastructure projects were still critical. So we needed to find that balance of making sure our workers were safe. Our project was going to be able to advance in a way that made sense. And, you know, these pandemic, it's going to be studied on its impact on major projects.
00;08;27;26 - 00;08;51;15
Annie
I'm hoping for decades to come because the ripple effect will continue to be. So we're still seeing it today. But yeah, it was a a trial by fire. I certainly had to learn quickly. And, you know, I think my teammates and I did a as good a job as we could, you know, keeping up the pillars of keeping the public informed, providing as much information as we could internally to our teammates to make sure that they could do the job they needed to do safely.
00;08;51;18 - 00;09;18;03
Annie
But yeah, I've only just now I as I reflect on your question, coming into a time where it's sort of more business as usual, I've done most of my work during what is considered a crisis or crisis recovery. So, yeah, it's been a, a very, enlightening experience. And I hope that, you know, it stays quiet for a while and we can just build as we normally built, and we're not dealing with another major, you know, global crisis.
00;09;18;03 - 00;09;41;04
Annie
But that's the thing about these major projects. There's so nimble, there's so complex. Well, that can seem like a barrier. That can seem like a challenge to overcome. It also creates a nimbleness. So many places can be tweaked and so many, facets of the, of the business can be adjusted just even slightly to make the big puzzle sort of keep moving forward, keep the train, you know.
00;09;41;04 - 00;10;03;00
Annie
Pardon? We end up using a ton of train puns. You don't realize how many train puns are in the world until you work in light rail. But, we keep the train moving forward. You know, we keep advancing, and it's it's it's quite impressive for an industry to have gone through the pandemic and still built and are still maintaining might not be maintaining the exact schedule that was predicted.
00;10;03;00 - 00;10;09;12
Annie
But all things considered, it's quite miraculous that these schedules on these major projects are advancing at the right there.
00;10;09;15 - 00;10;29;04
Riccardo
Yeah, for sure. I mean, as I said, I negotiated a lot of transaction. And, you know, we always reflect, we always discuss risks that may or may not materialize. I think pandemic in the old days with something. Oh, yeah, some, you know, some very risk averse lawyer would bring up pandemic as a risk. And we all do it for decades.
00;10;29;04 - 00;10;41;07
Riccardo
We dismissed it. There's never going to happen. And then, and then we found one, you know, now project agreements are getting amended to take that into consideration. What was the next big risk to materialize?
00;10;41;09 - 00;10;59;29
Annie
And you know, those what I'll call the bottom of the ledger, you know, the sort of catch all of contractual concerns and then all these other, you know, if a pandemic were to happen, if a major natural disaster were to happen, all these things kind of sit at the bottom because they seem so unlikely, especially in a relatively stable city like Ottawa.
00;11;00;03 - 00;11;20;05
Annie
I doubt anybody writing a contract here. You know, we don't have many major natural disasters. We don't have. We've had on out of pandemic. I think that, since yeah, those will now come up the ledger with some more eyes on them. And that's good because it will protect projects more, robustly in the future. But, I mean, the potential risk is will always be there.
00;11;20;05 - 00;11;40;19
Annie
But we've got a great opportunity now. I think these four years have given a lot of opportunity for projects to take lessons learned and put, you know, the the proverbial response binder together with all the how to's of if this ever if this or anything like it happens again, here's what we wouldn't do again. And here's what we will do.
00;11;40;25 - 00;11;45;03
Annie
And those will inform those future contracts as well. Yeah, I'm sure.
00;11;45;06 - 00;11;47;25
Riccardo
I'm sure. You know, I.
00;11;47;27 - 00;11;49;17
Annie
Think you're right, Ricardo. That's your.
00;11;49;19 - 00;12;18;20
Riccardo
Yeah, that's that's my world. That's my world. Unfortunately, as a bit boring. So let's let's talk about something else. I think we all know we all understand that the important role the stakeholders play in the planning and delivery and operation of major programs, and you being at the coalface of managing stakeholders. And you obviously came in gold into this industry where unfortunately, my belief is that, you know, those stakeholders can make or break a major program.
00;12;18;20 - 00;12;42;13
Riccardo
I don't think there's enough stakeholder management both pre and during construction. What's your experience been? I mean, having to manage some of those stakeholders, being that the public, the politician or, you know, other parties affected by, by the either the planning or the construction or the operation over on and of an LRT system.
00;12;42;16 - 00;13;10;24
Annie
Well, they're harder to predict, I think is part of the problem that we face in major projects. I think a lot about this because it's the very human nature, and I think my colleagues in HR or resource planning would agree or say that they think about similar things. Is that the waves of a community's needs or a stakeholders needs and not even a stakeholder, but somebody like the client or major investors, these things all have the chance to change on a dime.
00;13;10;26 - 00;13;39;01
Annie
And where what will serve as the life raft of that? Really, those relationships will be trust. And so sometimes I think we maybe in the early stages of a project struggle with sharing the hard news. And there's a place for stakeholder relations and communications professionals to help leaders talk about how we can share that news, because it builds trust.
00;13;39;03 - 00;13;53;17
Annie
If someone if you can trust that somebody is going to tell you the good, the bad and the ugly, there are much more reliable partner to you and you're far more willing to to meet them in the middle, find resolutions to problems. And I think that's possible even in a P3 environment, you know, where the risk profile is.
00;13;53;17 - 00;14;21;16
Annie
So heavily on the contractor side. But these entities all have their own driving factors, and I appreciate that commercial space or a leader in the construction space, it's not their job to look out into the world and anticipate and watch the trends and watch what's affecting these people, because stakeholders will ultimately respond to someone else, or they represent a group that has changing needs and wants through a project like these.
00;14;21;23 - 00;14;41;02
Annie
None of these are quick. So these things take over time. And so we don't want the construction or the commercial manager to have to waste, you know, focus their time on that. That's what we want to be able to do. But we also need a seat at the table to share that insight and share the opportunities for mitigation, the opportunities for, you know, promotion, advancement about the project.
00;14;41;02 - 00;14;58;18
Annie
Because ultimately, we're all really passionate about these projects. We believe in them. You know, I don't think you could sustain a career here in this industry if you didn't believe the things we were building were great. But as these projects are being built, they don't always feel great, and that's a reality for some of our stakeholders, for communities they're being built in.
00;14;58;18 - 00;15;21;24
Annie
It doesn't always feel that way. So there has to be a place for people to communicate their passion about the program, talk very honestly about some of the challenges that these programs, these major programs will have. And that's really best left with the people whose sole focus is that and all their experiences in understanding those waves that the stakeholders take us on throughout these multi-year projects.
00;15;21;26 - 00;15;37;04
Annie
And I mean, I'm new, so I recognize that I have all still so much to learn. But I was really lucky. So far in my career, I've worked with some really, amazing leaders of a lot more experience than I, and I listened very carefully when they talk, and this is what I hear mostly from them, is that
00;15;37;04 - 00;15;52;10
Annie
we are the eyes and ears in many ways of how the project's going to do everywhere else, but in the very boardroom that it's executed from, and that those outside forces, the climate around the boardroom affects the boardroom more than sometimes they'd like.
00;15;52;10 - 00;16;04;01
Annie
So let us help. Let us be in the room. Let us share our understanding what's coming and help us help you plan a mitigation around any problems we might see, because that's, I think, our ultimate benefit to the major project.
00;16;04;01 - 00;16;39;09
Riccardo
You know, as a project professionals, as a construction professional, you know, I've never really paid great attention to stakeholder management. It's only when I started learning about major programs and why they go wrong. I really started doing a deep dive. I realized how important stakeholder management is, how important stakeholders are to the success of a major program. But I also came to realize that, I mean, people that do stakeholder management like yourself, I mean, it's it's a gargantuan task because a lot of the things are fixed and your resources are limited.
00;16;39;12 - 00;17;13;08
Riccardo
You're stuck between a almost a rock and a hard place, right? Because you got these massive a project happening in the backyard of a lot of people. And, you know, ultimately, all this being years and years of decisions made ahead of of that project happening, and then you are trying to mitigate some of the concerns or some of the issues, trying to placate some of the issues and concerns, and that we, you know, we limited tools, or am I getting that wrong?
00;17;13;09 - 00;17;35;26
Annie
Oh, no, I think you're dead on. I would say that the thing I've come to hear from my colleagues in the industry and my my own experience is that, you know, there's no silver bullet to these things, as are very rarely is to any problem in the size of these size and complexity to these projects. But in the bid phase, and some companies are really good at this in the bid phase.
00;17;35;26 - 00;18;00;29
Annie
And when you're starting to understand the work is the time to really bring in and assign, if you can, if you can find them. We're often busy dealing with fires that are currently happening on existing projects, but we don't want to do that forever, so we would love to be brought in earlier and provide those perspectives at the bid phase to help identify for our companies where the challenges may be, what we should start planning in advance.
00;18;00;29 - 00;18;16;22
Annie
If, you know, I actually had a construction director who was looking at another project. Sorry to interrupt myself, but this is a funny story and he was working on it. He was helping support a bid and he pulled me into his office and he said, I just have a question like, when does this stakeholder stuff start to be important?
00;18;16;25 - 00;18;36;19
Annie
And I said about a year ago, if you're betting today, if you're bidding in the next, if you're at your, you know, read review gold review, it was a year ago. It was two years ago. I'm sorry you're late to the party now, but yeah, this is too late. And it's really hard in a ten minute conversation to explain to somebody why that is.
00;18;36;19 - 00;18;59;27
Annie
But I was able to impart with him, at least, that it cost you nothing to bring us in as early as the idea of this project comes about. Because if we had known, for example, if in Ottawa, if we had known in depth the kind of community and stakeholder relationship, it would have been required to help manage it through the Confederation Line and through the subsequent extensions.
00;18;59;27 - 00;19;20;11
Annie
If those companies had had the opportunity to engage much, much sooner with a more fulsome team, it's very possible that some of the way that it turned out for the contractor in this community may have been mitigated and avoided. It's always easy to say that in hindsight, obviously, but I'm hoping that more companies start to see, you know, and you had a colleague, I believe.
00;19;20;14 - 00;19;29;13
Annie
I mean, I've read the book, but I believe he's a professor of yours or somebody, you know, from your time at Oxford, who wrote how to Build Big Projects. I'm forgetting the name of the book.
00;19;29;13 - 00;19;32;27
Riccardo
If you could, Ben. Fleabag. How big things get done.
00;19;32;29 - 00;19;42;26
Annie
Right. And the main point I took away from his book, and I think everyone did, was that projects don't go wrong. They start wrong. Or I'm super paraphrasing.
00;19;42;29 - 00;20;09;23
Riccardo
No, no, you you're you're right. He also says, plan slow, act fast. So spend the time planning and but then when you do execute, execute fast because you will not avoid you want to avoid the black swans, right? The longer I think in the longer you your construction project goes, the more likely it is that you're going to get a black swan flowing through your project.
00;20;10;22 - 00;20;33;09
Annie
Yeah. And that's why I, you know, for stakeholder relations and communications I mean it depends on the world you're in. A communications can mean sort of the big C corporate communications that happens from you know very public facing. The stakeholder relations can be considered its own entity depending on the size of the project, where it is, who the stakeholders are in the region or in the business.
00;20;33;11 - 00;20;59;08
Annie
But certainly earlier the better with what we can share. And, you know, something as simple as a stakeholder scan, like a true stakeholder scan, is a very easy tool to do. It's not labor intensive, it's not costly, but it certainly requires somebody to know they need to do it. You know, like all things, if we don't know what we don't know if projects were to understand that these things need to happen long before you bid, it makes your bid stronger, number one, far more likely to get the job.
00;20;59;13 - 00;21;16;12
Annie
If your client or the you know the entity feels really understood and really seen by the contract are going to be spoken to. Throw the bid. Huge win in those non-technical non scored parts especially that can probably be the deciding factor on a really tight bid, you know, especially if they're going to be spending, you know billions of dollars.
00;21;16;12 - 00;21;33;28
Annie
And in a project that's got face time. You know it's going to face time with citizens. It's going to face time with businesses, it's going to face time with government. All those things that the sooner you can identify what those pain points could be, the sooner you can mitigate them and the better the bid will be, the better the project will be.
00;21;34;05 - 00;22;05;13
Annie
But that's yeah, that's that's all that to say. I think you can correct me if you think I'm totally off base here. I think social media has really changed the world's reality around stakeholder management. It's much harder to control a message. Things are much more easily passed around. Information is shared far more widely. The world of trolls exists in a way that, you know, you might have had critical journalists in the past, but that could, you know, be mitigated through a PR approach.
00;22;05;13 - 00;22;25;07
Annie
And all those things are have totally shifted. So there has to be a whole new view on how we're going to do work in. And I'm I guess I'm speaking mostly, and I'm glad that we talked about where I'm from because I'm speaking about predominantly urban projects, you know, not rural or camp, you know, oil and gas projects that are far away.
00;22;25;07 - 00;22;37;06
Annie
Those get a different kind of attention. I'm sort of speaking from the perspective of something more urban, with eyes and ears and interactions with it all the time, you know, whole ramming in the back yard, so to speak, type projects.
00;22;37;08 - 00;22;58;28
Riccardo
Well, yeah, the social media effect, obviously in a remote area is probably not going to be as strong. But I, I mean, there are other issues and I think stakeholder management is important no matter the job, geographical location of the project. And I totally agree with you. It has changed. The landscape is has made stakeholder relation even more important, right?
00;22;58;28 - 00;23;24;11
Riccardo
Because you got to build even more trust with your stakeholders because you don't want a single tweet or a single post on social media to completely derail. Here we go on the railway plan to completely derail project. And so that means in order to have that resilience built in within your major program, you need to build that through trust building.
00;23;24;14 - 00;23;27;25
Riccardo
So yeah, I think yeah, I think you're absolutely correct.
00;23;27;27 - 00;23;45;03
Annie
Yeah. And one thing I'll add to that, I hope people understand or that I hope the industry comes to understand, because my experience in the short time I've been here is the other place for growth. And I just see a ton of opportunity because it's so it's going to be great if we can get it off the ground.
00;23;45;03 - 00;24;15;20
Annie
Is the full integration of your. And I will just say stakeholders from now, your stakeholder relations, teammates into the project construction community, the environment that's internal, the meetings, the correspondence, the decision making. Because if we can understand what's happening, we can talk about it. I often say like we are the translators of the technical to the accessible. We're the ones that have to learn and understand it.
00;24;15;20 - 00;24;37;17
Annie
Technically enough that we can take it and explain it to any stakeholder, whether that somebody who's backyard is on the project or an MP who's never had major, a major project happen in their jurisdiction, and this is their first time they've got angry residents or angry constituents. They want to be able to answer their questions to an anger or something you can't avoid.
00;24;37;17 - 00;25;02;14
Annie
People don't like disruption. They don't like change. They struggle with the impacts. No doubt construction can be impactful. So we need to be able to understand these activities. The plan, what it's all going to mean. Why it can't be another way. All that is very important for us to go out and be the the Kevlar to the project with the people who are very capable of derailing it.
00;25;02;14 - 00;25;26;04
Annie
Because if you've been on major projects and you know what happens if there's enough distrust or mistrust of the project, it can have huge implications on future business, on claims, on just our day to day operation or relationship with the client. So these things are all impacted because the client is influenced, informed by all that emotion out in the world.
00;25;26;04 - 00;25;54;24
Annie
So if you bring us in and let us become quasi construction people, we will soak it up and we will learn it and we will be able to be the Kevlar vest for you. I often use the analogy when I'm trying to describe what I do as construction is kind of like a snowplow. It's doing a really important job, and I apologize to anybody from a warm climate who's listening to this and don't have a lot of experience with snow plows, but snow paths are giant trucks that clear tons of snow at one time.
00;25;54;26 - 00;26;25;26
Annie
And communications and stakeholder relations are kind of like the blades we do push most of the problem out of the way. If we're in front, if we are behind the plow, we are useless in the plow slows down. It can't get through the snow, it can't do its job. So when you envision where you want your stakeholder relations team in your project, try to get them out at the front and try to get them embedded in the machine.
00;26;25;28 - 00;26;53;18
Annie
Not way ahead where it's unrealistic and un relevant or irrelevant, you know, to the project and not too far behind even I'm a little bit behind. We have to be sort of well positioned to know what's happening, understand it thoroughly so we can be do the job we want to do. We hate to be ineffective. We do not like to see the project slow down by something we could have mitigated, but we've got to be positioned well to do that.
00;26;53;20 - 00;26;56;25
Riccardo
Oh, wise words. Very like yours. I'm,
00;26;56;27 - 00;27;00;21
Annie
I'm a Canadian, so. Yes, Adrian.
00;27;00;23 - 00;27;20;29
Riccardo
Very Canadians have an analogy, right? A very Canadian. You. But look, I know, you know, having been involved with the Confederation Line, even being a witness in the public inquiry, I'm glad the public inquiry happened because we can learn. And in fact, I think we need more. One thing I've noticed in the United Kingdom, they have a lot of postmortem.
00;27;20;29 - 00;27;45;22
Riccardo
Right on. On what? When projects go bad, why? It's almost a shame that it had to come to, you know, that complete loss of trust of, you know, the people of all the why the politicians of Ottawa to actually have a look through the public inquiry of what went wrong. But I think it was good. It kind of reset a little bit the public trust.
00;27;45;22 - 00;28;09;09
Riccardo
And because the public trust was completely lost for whatever reason. Right? I don't you know, I think I think the commissioners expressed why there was but ultimately that's the classic example of what happened when the stakeholder lose trust in your program and things go really bad for all parties. And that's the sad part. I don't think there's anybody that came out on top.
00;28;09;12 - 00;28;22;00
Riccardo
I mean, the people of Ottawa didn't have the system that they wanted. The contractor probably lost money. You know, the political were hammered by the constituencies. Yeah, it was bad all around. It's bad all around.
00;28;22;02 - 00;28;51;07
Annie
Yeah. You know, could all of it have been avoided through stakeholder management? We'll never know. You know, we can't make that hypothesis. But I think I agree with you. The public inquiry was really positive. I like to frame, you know, our problems on where we want a solution to be. And so I think what the public inquiry did by showing us what could have been done better on the Confederation Line, has set projects around Canada, North America.
00;28;51;07 - 00;29;10;29
Annie
Anybody engaging in this model on how to do it differently and how to do better to improve the next project. And you're right. Unfortunately, you know, a set of contractors, a joint venture and a client, the city in this case and all the stakeholders sort of touched in on that. We had to learn some hard lessons and and take some losses.
00;29;11;01 - 00;29;31;23
Annie
But at the end of the day, these kinds of projects will be better across multiple jurisdictions because that work was done. And I'm glad to hear that other jurisdictions do more introspective work after the fact. And we certainly have a place to do that here if we aren't going to do it in a public, you know, inquiry framework.
00;29;31;25 - 00;29;50;01
Annie
I know that the contractors that you know, that I've had the pleasure of working with, the companies I've worked with are all very lessons learned, based, you know, there's a lot of emphasis on let's not let's not go around this merry go round again. What can we take from it? How can we implement change? How can we prevent this in the future?
00;29;50;01 - 00;30;04;12
Annie
And I'm certain because I've many, you know, former colleagues at the client side here in Ottawa who feel the exact same way, you know, there's always a bit of a tail between the legs for all parties, but ultimately everyone's going to benefit because they're going to do better projects in the future.
00;30;04;14 - 00;30;28;07
Riccardo
I couldn't agree more. I, I do believe that, you know, I do believe that a formal process, like a public inquiry is probably very expensive. So you can't really do it on a regular basis. But the rigor and the openness and transparency and the unbiased approach of the commissioner. Right. That's priceless. I don't do myself because I is expensive.
00;30;28;07 - 00;30;56;05
Riccardo
But you know, I mean unfortunately we're all human and corporations are made of human. And so there are always biases in the lesson learned. And I found that the public inquiry was able to de bias that which is it provides you a much clearer picture and a much richer lesson than just a simple, not simple, but then just a lesson learned, by individual parties, right?
00;30;56;07 - 00;31;22;03
Annie
I have a question for you. Do you think if public inquiries or an entity like an independent watchdog, I don't like that word ombudsman maybe was a standing procedure in the jurisdiction. We'll say here in Ontario, do you think contracts would be formed differently if they knew the eventuality of that was very probable that everything could be made public and it could all be reviewed by third party.
00;31;22;03 - 00;31;28;00
Annie
Do you think we would do things differently? Do you think that system would create a different input from the get go?
00;31;28;02 - 00;31;48;27
Riccardo
Potentially, though, I think the benefit is more in having a less biased view of when what went wrong. Right. I think if you put two parties in a room and on a project that went badly and you ask them whose fault you are is probably going to be some finger pointing.
00;31;49;23 - 00;32;15;08
Riccardo
Think that's not constructive. And because there are commercial interests it's always difficult to the bias. Right. Because I mean unfortunately it's you know it's the world we live in for good or for bad. And so having that deep biased view really can get to the root cause. And there's never one root cause. I mean, the nature of this project is the major programs, the complex.
00;32;15;10 - 00;32;40;27
Riccardo
And when you have complexity, you have unpredictable ability and is actually really difficult. One is the complex because it's really difficult to understand the levers is really difficult to understand the cause and effect, but at least you're trying to do that in a de biased way through an independent body. And yeah, I mean, I think the next step in my utopian view of the world will be okay.
00;32;40;27 - 00;33;08;19
Riccardo
And then you have an independent body that actually dictates, the implementation of the lessons learned. You know, that's the other thing, right? I mean, I've just wrote an article on how in the UK they've had, you know, they've had three major industry reviews by government, you know, from the mid 1990s and that free through to 2017 and all the reports say the same thing.
00;33;08;21 - 00;33;16;20
Riccardo
And so we're very good at identifying the issues. We're not as good as fixing them.
00;33;16;23 - 00;33;43;20
Annie
I wonder I'm hopeful and not to pivot, but I'm hopeful that the advancements in all kinds of diversity can help in that diversity of experience, diversity of professionals, diversity of the human beings that sit at the table. We might be able to bring fresh perspectives to implementation of those problems out of those solutions to those problems. Not certainly that people aren't capable.
00;33;43;20 - 00;34;04;29
Annie
I think there's a lot of systems in place that might prevent us from implementing what we know to be, or implementing solutions to a known problem, but do those reviews that you just referenced in the UK, do they stipulate the protocol for making it better or improvement, or does it just state that what the problem was?
00;34;04;29 - 00;34;07;10
Riccardo
No, no, they do make recommendations.
00;34;07;12 - 00;34;09;15
Annie
Yeah, I figured but that.
00;34;09;17 - 00;34;29;06
Riccardo
You know, a recommendation is to be adopted. Right. And that's why in a perfect world, those commission would also have the power to legislate the changes. Right. As I said, some of the recommendations over 30 years haven't changed. So clearly they've never or they've been implemented and discarded or they never been implemented.
00;34;29;09 - 00;34;34;06
Annie
Yeah. And that's across industries I think we see that in many.
00;34;34;08 - 00;34;39;19
Riccardo
The construction is particularly bad construction particularly bad.
00;34;39;22 - 00;34;46;21
Annie
We've been building things for a long time. We probably figure we know how to do it right. Part of the problem.
00;34;46;24 - 00;35;07;17
Riccardo
Since you pivot, let's continue that pivot because I think, you know, I think you bring a very, very experienced voice to the table, but also very diverse voice to the table. And you said at the top, you're a trans person in the construction industry. And I think it'd be interesting for the audience to hear that perspective as well.
00;35;07;19 - 00;35;15;18
Riccardo
And, you know, some of the challenges, opportunities the US faced. And then the trans people facing the industry.
00;35;15;21 - 00;35;44;05
Annie
Yeah, I'm well, first, for anybody who's listening, I'll just sort of put out there because sometimes we get caught up on the words. And so, you know, some people might be listening and hear, okay, well that person's got feminine name. They have a feminine voice and yet they're trans. What does that mean? So when we say trans we mean that that is somebody who's gender which, you know, and you'd have to believe that the gender is something that is not kicked in.
00;35;44;06 - 00;36;01;10
Annie
It's something that we perform. It's something that we do, that we can choose the a trans person's gender does not align with the gender they were assigned at birth. So that's all that trans means. And so there's a huge umbrella of what that can mean for people. But it is a handy tool to just sort of say I am trans.
00;36;01;17 - 00;36;21;13
Annie
And then certainly sort of from, I believe, Latin derivatives. But cisgendered people are people whose gender does align with the one they were assigned at birth. So it's not a dirty word. These aren't bad words. They just help identify that. If I were to say, you know, I'm a cis person, that would just mean that the gender I was assigned at birth is what I feel and am.
00;36;21;13 - 00;36;50;24
Annie
So that is great. And then a trans person is not. And I identifies a trans person, but more specifically a non-binary person. So that means neither man nor woman. I sort of float in this space in my mind of genderless or just not one of the two. I sit in a different place, but, you know, at the same time, I think it's important for people to know I walk around with a ton of privilege because I have a feminine voice.
00;36;50;24 - 00;37;14;01
Annie
I still use the name that I was given at birth, which is Annie, traditionally a feminine name in English and so I can walk into a lot of rooms and no one know that I'm trans. And that's been a blessing and a curse in the construction world, where I haven't encountered any other trans people. Not to say that there aren't folks out there who are trans in the construction industry.
00;37;14;02 - 00;37;37;25
Annie
I just haven't had the chance to meet them. And I, you know, I did that. I did a little bit math because, you know, somebody and communications were really good with numbers. That's why we're in comms. But I did a, you know, a big construction company and I, you know, that might have 36,000 employees based on the statistics out in the world, we would only have 118 trans people in that company.
00;37;37;27 - 00;38;05;03
Annie
So we'd be a small slice of the cake. We're we're not a huge group, but we have a very specific set of challenges, and we have a lot of great perspectives that we can bring to the industry. And I guess for me, I am constantly fighting with that bit of myself that knows that I am passing. As a woman, I was assigned to male at birth, assigned a woman at birth, and so I have, you know, notable, female sex organs.
00;38;05;03 - 00;38;34;24
Annie
I don't look any different than the average person. And yet I sort of sit in the shadows of, in my transness sometimes, especially in the construction world, where it doesn't always feel safe to be open about who I am and that that's hard sometimes. That's a hard thing to to bring to work. I worry that my colleagues who might be trans in the industry, or people who want to come into the industry or worry about that same potentiality, have feeling like you can't be fully open in the industry.
00;38;34;26 - 00;38;37;00
Riccardo
I don't even know where to start.
00;38;37;02 - 00;38;39;02
Annie
Well, it's hard. It's a lot.
00;38;39;04 - 00;39;05;11
Riccardo
It is a lot. Well, I hope we also be kind to yourself. You are in a difficult situation which is beyond your control, right? I mean, you can't control how people behave around you. Not all the time, anyway. So you got to do what you got to do to, to carry on your day. Yeah. And it's interesting, like, you know, you are I think you are the first trans person that I met in the industry in 25 years.
00;39;05;11 - 00;39;29;20
Riccardo
I think I'm aware of another person that works at my company because I, I watch the video on the in the company internal website. But otherwise. Yeah. So basically 25 years in the industry, two people and I'm sure there are more and I like your statistic. Right. You said 100 and you know it. There must be a ratio right, of.
00;39;29;22 - 00;39;33;28
Annie
Yeah, we're about a third of a percent of the population. Right on the whole.
00;39;33;28 - 00;39;48;24
Riccardo
So yeah. Now you make me wonder, I mean, how many people I have actually met. And then I didn't feel safe enough to tell me or they didn't. Yeah. They didn't want to communicate because statistically speaking, I should have met more.
00;39;48;26 - 00;40;13;22
Annie
I think there's a couple things at play and I, you know, there's there's a few things that my experience in industry have sort of highlighted for me. There's a ton of allies. There are a lot of wonderful, accepting, safe people in the construction industry. There are they're out there. But it's hard to know who's safe in an industry that feels broadly not safe, if that makes sense.
00;40;13;24 - 00;40;36;19
Annie
There could be. We use the I think the euphemism has been used about guns, right? We always handle every gun as if it's loaded. We act as if it's we're trained to act as if it's dangerous, even though it may not be. It might not be load. It might not be dangerous at all. And so I think there's a lot of people, you know, in my trans community, even in the LGBTQ community, who have to walk in extra cautious.
00;40;36;19 - 00;41;11;29
Annie
And there's some interesting stat, you know, I believe it, Hugh, or Pew Research Institute, Institute that identified that trans people are four times more likely to encounter violent victimization. So assault sexual assault rate than the general population. So that sits on our shoulders no matter where we go. And then when we go into an industry or go into a place that needs more women, needs more trans people, needs more queer people, it can feel kind of homogenous, generally male, generally white, depending on the jurisdiction.
00;41;11;29 - 00;41;35;13
Annie
So I'm going to speak of my own here in Canada. Unfortunately, the group who perpetrate the most violence on us are the most prevalent in this industry. That's not to say the people in the street are violent or that they are dangerous. Not at all. But the the stats show that trans people experience far more violence than our cisgendered counterparts, and often at the hands of white men.
00;41;35;15 - 00;41;56;04
Annie
So we're already on edge. It's already perceived to be a place that's not going to be very safe. And then if you have to be closeted to exist in that space, so you really love construction or you really love civil engineering, or you really love nuclear or mining, whatever, you know, and I'm we're talking about big companies. I think that's what we're familiar with.
00;41;56;04 - 00;42;22;26
Annie
Or these companies have multiple areas of expertise out in the world, and you want to work in those. You want to work for these great companies. You want to work on these amazing major projects, but not at the risk of your own safety. So there's a big push or there's a big incentivization to closet like I do. I don't wear my trans ness loud and proud in every room I walk into because it can be dangerous.
00;42;22;26 - 00;42;47;03
Annie
It can be physically dangerous. It can also be detrimental to my career. There's a whole bunch of things that doesn't make it, advantageous to do that. And so people are can be closeted. And then and I think you and I talked about this, I sort of give the analogy of the experience to be in the closet is to have to wear the clothes and behave in a way that is so counter to who you are.
00;42;47;05 - 00;43;11;14
Annie
It's consuming and you feel like all eyes are on you and you're worried they're going to find out that you are trans, or that you are queer, and that you are going to then face those repercussions, those negative repercussions. Despite all of your efforts not to do that or not to be outed and then still do a full time job and still be excellent at it and still, you know, justify the paycheck you get every week or every two week.
00;43;11;15 - 00;43;33;26
Annie
And to make the difference in the industry that you have to and I think a lot of cisgender people might not understand the amount of mental fatigue that goes into that. Now, I will preface, women get it. I think women really get it, because I think a lot of women in the construction industry have to put on a part a little bit to survive, to grow because of the way the system works.
00;43;33;28 - 00;43;44;27
Annie
Currently. But that is all very exhausting. It's mentally taxing, and you wonder how somebody could possibly give their best in that circumstance. The great guys.
00;43;45;00 - 00;44;13;28
Riccardo
Sorry I interrupted you. I was going to I was going to say that. Yeah, for sure. Man, white men don't understand CS because people don't understand the challenges because, you know, I, I, I'm, I consider myself a fairly progressive individual and I've never even crossed my mind, you know, women. Yes. But I get it. But I also because, you know, to be honest, I never really had to confront that really.
00;44;14;00 - 00;44;38;15
Riccardo
But, yeah, you actually, you know, I, I spoke to a lot of women, and I'm a big ally to women, and yeah, I, I never actually considered the mental fatigue having those behavior to fit in because that's what it is. Right. You're really trying to trying to fit in. And so you're behaving unnaturally in order to fit in.
00;44;38;15 - 00;45;04;29
Riccardo
And that takes a mental toll. And yeah, I mean it's again this privilege, right? I mean, yeah, I don't want to compare it, but, you know, to a certain degree being an, you know, an Italian immigrant, having moved to the UK to us a little bit, I had to fit in as well. You compare, but I can relate because when I was in the UK, I had, you know, I had to learn to drink beers by pints, right?
00;45;05;02 - 00;45;16;15
Riccardo
You know, I could not, not drink coming from Italy where I wasn't doing that, but I forced myself to fit in. So I became, you know, I drank a lot because that was the culture, and I had to fit in.
00;45;16;18 - 00;45;37;28
Annie
Yeah. And that's something that maybe your British colleagues didn't have to experience. And yet you were going to be measured on the same bar. Yes. In your progression. And I think, you know, I often think another easy sort of analogy and it's not going none of these are exact or purely accurate, but I often look at my colleagues who have to function in a second language, second, third or fourth language at work.
00;45;37;28 - 00;45;57;14
Annie
Like all day. I work at a company. Right now we're working on a project with a joint venture with a French company, and a lot of my colleagues are recently from France. This is their first project in Canada, and they have to work in English every day. And I just think that would be so exhausting. But I know how it kind of feels, because I have to pretend to be a woman every day and be constant on guard.
00;45;57;21 - 00;46;18;23
Annie
Now it's not the same, but it is a closer like you'll probably never know what it's like to be trans, but you do know what it's like to function in a language that's not your first. And if your first year of working in a company that was fully English or whatever your other languages are, those experiences, the sort of getting home and going, oh, I just want to taught Italian to I just want to speak Italian to somebody.
00;46;18;25 - 00;46;29;24
Annie
I just want somebody to ask me a question in Italian. That's what I'd really like. And that's how you feel when you get home. It's like, I just like somebody to see me and not worry about all of these bad things that are going to happen if I get seen.
00;46;29;26 - 00;46;54;08
Riccardo
That's the difference, right? Just example to relate. But they're not even close because there is no repercussion for me not drinking the same amount of beer as I'm a British friends, or for me not to speak fluent English. Right? I mean, while there are, there could be repercussions for people to argue or to, realize that you might be closeted and that that is real.
00;46;54;10 - 00;46;57;18
Riccardo
That's something that I never experienced.
00;46;57;21 - 00;47;21;13
Annie
It's hard to I mean, there's a difficulty in knowing that the thing most likely to limit you is something you can't control in your career and in the industry that, you know, I didn't I this is so cliche and so annoyingly gross, but like construct I didn't pick construction. Construction pick me like, I feel so connected to the work we're doing.
00;47;21;13 - 00;47;53;10
Annie
And I feel so charged up every day about the work and about the projects I'm on. Some days are harder than others, but some days it's really hard to think if I really wanted to be who I was authentically and give my full self, which would give my best performance and my role could be my downfall. Not because of how effective I am in the role, but because there's a culture of people who don't understand and might not be ready to, or might not want to ever just simply understand that I'm a little bit different than what they know.
00;47;53;10 - 00;48;14;15
Annie
And but it really makes no difference on their life. But it can be very hard. Yeah, to sort of sit and picture a future in an industry that you're not sure if you'll ever progress in because like even coming on this podcast, I was just sitting chatting with my partner like, there's a huge amount of risk that being this out about my transness gets to the wrong ears and an unlimited.
00;48;14;17 - 00;48;39;22
Annie
But, you know, I believe at the same time, I hold a belief that if you're not at the table, you're on the menu. So we have to have our voices are we have to advocate for more people to advance and more people to come into the industry so that they can be at the table someday. Setting policy, setting direction, and making the environment a safe place so that we're no longer on the menu.
00;48;39;23 - 00;49;09;07
Annie
We're no longer what's eaten up by the machine because we're represented at the decision making table that decides how the machine moves. So this is a greater purpose than my own individual experience, because I think construction will benefit from trans even just to something as simple as like design. You know, we talk about accessing equity so people with physical disabilities, you want them to be in the room when we're designing these major projects because they're gonna make the projects better.
00;49;09;07 - 00;49;32;25
Annie
They're going to make the output better for people in the world. They're going to make the experience better for people in the room. If I can belong as a trans person in a big company, doing really amazing work, then everyone can, you know, if black people can be wholly brought in into the industry, you know, like we everybody can become more welcome in the industry.
00;49;32;25 - 00;49;46;13
Annie
It's only going to get better because all these smart people, they just might be trans or they just might have a disability, but they're they could be the geniuses. Your project needs to really set it apart from other projects in the world.
00;49;46;16 - 00;50;09;22
Riccardo
Yeah, I not, and then you're unlocking the potential, right? By accepting, as you said, you're probably not delivering 110% and 100% of your potential because because you're focusing on your safety and you're focusing on fitting in. And that's why diversity is important. But it's also important to give a safe space so that people can bring the best they can to the table.
00;50;09;22 - 00;50;15;26
Riccardo
And in an industry which which is a skill shortage, that actually makes a lot of business sense.
00;50;15;29 - 00;50;47;16
Annie
The ROI on diversity is huge. It's unrealized, I think, in a lot of industries, but in construction in particular, if we can stay on the path and I think many companies and many groups are, they're starting small, but they're going to get there. The return on investment, on the talent you'll be able to attract. If the shareholders could know what's possibly being left out of the pool of people that could be building these projects, designing these projects, facilitating them, they'd probably like shove it up yours.
00;50;47;16 - 00;51;05;06
Annie
Guys like, you know, the brand or industry leadership, shove it up yours. We want the money like we want the best and go get it. I don't care if they're trans, I don't care who they are. Get them and make it a safe place. Make sure they can do their best work because we want them. That's what's going to, you know, bring profits over the long haul.
00;51;05;08 - 00;51;10;17
Annie
And the new generation. Like I'm a millennial, so like I'm old now. As far as what?
00;51;10;18 - 00;51;13;08
Riccardo
So don't say that.
00;51;13;10 - 00;51;34;29
Annie
We're sorry. We're old. But I mean, these concepts in the younger generations are not foreign and they are not scared to be who they are, and they are not scared to say no to industries that won't accept them, and they'll take their genius somewhere else. And that's is where my business. Like, if I were running these big companies, if I was, you know, I'm just using a name.
00;51;34;29 - 00;51;52;13
Annie
If I was the head of Bechtel, I'd be like, oh, I don't want the world's best to think I'm not a great place and I'm not. Nothing gets back down. I don't know anything about them. They're just a huge name, right? So, like, I hope they're driving towards getting all those great minds. They're amazing. And they have a whole different perspective.
00;51;52;13 - 00;52;11;10
Annie
Imagine somebody who's had to live through figuring out that they're trans. Tell me that person is not going to be resilient. Tell me that person is not going to problem solve to find solutions in the drawing room. When we come against a big problem, these people have the soft skills just from surviving that are going to benefit you, let alone their technical skills that they're going to gain.
00;52;11;13 - 00;52;31;24
Annie
You know, in school and in working. These are resilient people. These are people who know how to push through problems. These are people who know how to be authentic even when it hurts them. They know how to do the hard stuff, even when it hurts them. So that's who I want on my team, because I know we'll solve problems and we'll solve them fast, according to your colleagues.
00;52;31;24 - 00;52;33;03
Annie
Hope you know.
00;52;33;05 - 00;52;47;13
Riccardo
It. Tell me, what can allies do to help? I have talked a lot about being an ally to women, but I never even considered being an ally to trans, and I wouldn't even know. What can I do to help?
00;52;47;15 - 00;53;32;10
Annie
Well, I think you and other allies who are already seeing that you need to learn more about chef's kiss. That's amazing. But I think if I were to ask cisgendered people one thing that they do, and it's easy to do, depending on who you are, any, any level, you can do it. If you're, you know, directing traffic at a site or if you are making the biggest fiscal decisions of the company, you can whenever you go into a room where decisions are about to be made, take a hard look at who's in the room and ask yourself and ask those colleagues who's missing in this room.
00;53;32;12 - 00;53;55;29
Annie
And if you know that women and trans people, black and brown people, people with disabilities, I mean the queer people, all the marginalized groups, just being aware that the rooms look really similar, often and pose the question to others because often my experience has been most people are not the bigots that we sort of might imagine people to be.
00;53;56;02 - 00;54;19;22
Annie
They just don't know. They don't know what they don't know. They don't realize that the room is missing women. They don't realize that it's missing black, brown people of color, indigenous people. They don't realize that it's been a privilege they've walked with. But allies can help open everyone's eyes. And I think that's the biggest piece I often say to people in my life, like, you don't need to open the door for me, but I need you to show me where it is.
00;54;19;25 - 00;54;36;04
Annie
I'll bust through it. I will make sure that I can do whatever I've got to do, but I need to know where the door is, and it's really helpful if there's people on the other side. So if you can point me to that door, we will knock it down. And I think a lot of people in the community, in marginalized communities feel that way.
00;54;36;04 - 00;54;53;07
Annie
We don't need you to do we don't need allies to change the whole world. We just need you to know that we're there and ask why we aren't. Because if you ask why we aren't there, how we can get there, it will change. People will have to see their own, their own homogenous out in the world, you know?
00;54;53;07 - 00;55;10;12
Annie
And I think that's my number one ask is, and if you do it, this is sort of a side thing. If you do do that, if you do go into the room and you ask the boardroom that you're in, hey, could we get more women in here? How can we do that? Who's going to take that on? Who's going to own it?
00;55;10;14 - 00;55;29;21
Annie
The second thing is talk about doing it and not to be self-promoting, not to be self-aggrandizing. But that's how I know you're a safe person. That's how I know you are the ally is that I know you do these things, do them publicly if you can. If you have the privilege of being somebody who can do it without too much negative repercussion.
00;55;29;23 - 00;55;44;22
Annie
Me, if I put my hand up and say, hey, I'm a trans person and I sit on a leadership team right now, if I put my hands up and say I'm a trans person, why aren't there more trans people here? Or why aren't there more women here? Or so on and so on and so forth? Well, you just put my head above the trench line right there.
00;55;44;22 - 00;56;03;12
Annie
Like that's an easy makes you an easy mark. But if you if you are in the in-group, you know, this goes back to our basic understanding sociology. If you're in the group, you have way more power and they'll listen to you. And they might actually do the thing that the marginalized people have been screaming for everybody to do for a long time.
00;56;03;18 - 00;56;22;12
Annie
And then so tell us you've done it because I'll immediately know that you're an ally. I'll know that you're the person I can go to if I've come across something that's harmful or potentially risky for me in a, in a workplace, you know, seek out opportunities where you can to meet more. And I think your podcast has done this.
00;56;22;12 - 00;56;40;11
Annie
You've done a whole series of women in the industry that's amazing. That signals to people that women are valued parts of this industry, and we need to hear more of them. And it's a man asking them, that's amazing. And I so I think you're doing a great job. And if I could ask anybody else is just ask why we're not there and what we can do to get there.
00;56;40;14 - 00;57;10;21
Annie
And I think that will change now, that might be my utopian idea. And I know I get really worked up and I sound probably pretty excited about it, but it's so easy for people in the in-group that's such an easy thing to do at relatively low risk. Like, it's so simple to do. And I'll even say, even if you can't, if you're one of the people who can't say it out loud, you might not have the social currency or the professional currency to spend in that moment for whatever reason.
00;57;10;24 - 00;57;25;23
Annie
Just think it and analyze it and find and think about other ways that we could, you know, send that message out to the broader masses. If you can't do it in the moment, in the room, so to speak. What do you think about that? Does that sound hard? Maybe I'm asking a lot.
00;57;25;25 - 00;57;28;20
Riccardo
I mean, personally, I was going to ask you, okay, what else? Because I mean.
00;57;28;20 - 00;57;29;17
Annie
That's easy, right?
00;57;29;19 - 00;57;50;17
Riccardo
I think there are a lot of people that are trying to do what you what you're asking. I know there are corporation, there are boards that are seeing the value in diversity. And I really pushing the agenda. Very negative individual. The people that listen to these know how negative I can be. They know me know that.
00;57;50;17 - 00;58;15;03
Riccardo
But I'm very invigorated by what I see and what the changes that I see companies executive pushing forward. Even as I said, as a progressive person, you know, the because of now that the exposure to nonbinary people transgender I just yeah. I just don't know. I don't know what I don't know. I think you said it beautifully and I don't even know how to help.
00;58;15;03 - 00;58;38;22
Riccardo
And so this was very, very enlightening to me. And I was going to say that, you know, if there are other courageous trans people that, you know, in the industry that they want to come forward, I'm more than happy to have them. It'd be difficult for me to do a series because I just don't know enough. But if you know enough people, I'd love to do a series like I've done for women in the industry.
00;58;38;25 - 00;59;02;26
Annie
Well, it. If I meet them, I'll tell you. But that's. You know what? I think your point about sometimes feeling like you don't know how to help. That's miles above a lot of people who aren't even thinking about the issue. So it's very appreciated. Like we people in the community don't mind when there are people who are wanting to learn more and they're just not there yet.
00;59;02;26 - 00;59;22;15
Annie
Like, I know a lot of you here, I'll give you another example. A lot of people are very nervous about pronouns, so I use they them pronouns, but I also don't mind she her pronouns. And there's going to be different for everybody. For me, she her is not a traumatic or upsetting pronoun to hear. I don't feel negatively about hearing it, so for me it's not a problem.
00;59;22;18 - 00;59;47;27
Annie
But I know a lot of cisgender people are people who are new to the trans community, get really nervous about offending someone, and that's really lovely because you care and you don't want to hurt people. And trans people get that. We know that somebody is not trying to be hurtful, and if you simply forget or correct yourself, you're just sending off these beautiful fireworks into the air that you are an ally.
00;59;47;27 - 01;00;09;09
Annie
You are a safe person if you correct yourself. And if somebody says to me, I mean, I'm very androgynous looking, so sometimes I get high and they'll correct themselves. And I just say, that is somebody who cares enough to feel a moment of humiliation for my comfort and safety in a space. You've just sent fireworks off, showing me how, what an ally you are and how safe you are.
01;00;09;09 - 01;00;31;21
Annie
And they're somebody I can be around. I will take a thousand, a million, a billion mistakes from people who are trying any day. And I think if pronouns are something that's difficult for you or for anybody, it's natural. It's learning to speak in a new way. It's difficult, especially if you come from languages where things are gendered. It can be so challenging.
01;00;31;24 - 01;00;50;28
Annie
The trans community knows it. We struggle, we make mistakes. I miss, I miss gender people all the time, because my culture and the context in which I was raised is different than the current one. I live now. As I grow and I learn, and if I were just to give one other tip would be to be kinder to yourself about interacting.
01;00;51;04 - 01;01;12;12
Annie
We're just people. We're we're the same. As you know, we have far more in common than we have a, you know, differences. And be kind to yourself because you're trying to do something that's hard. And the trans community, it's very much appreciate the efforts that are, you know, siblings out in the world are trying the changes that they're trying to make to their own behavior, to make us feel more included.
01;01;12;12 - 01;01;24;06
Annie
I see it as a huge win. So I only say that because I know pronouns seem to be something that people get really hung up on, because it's the generally the most active part of people talking about transness.
01;01;24;08 - 01;01;45;26
Riccardo
Oh yeah, and by the way, I think I use the wrong pronoun or at the very top of this podcast, and I'm glad that I'm talking to you, because I've actually been talking about you to colleagues, and I've asked them to correct my pronouns as I was talking to them. And I can tell you it was, it wasn't an easy conversation because I think every two words there was a correction coming my way.
01;01;45;28 - 01;02;10;22
Riccardo
And yeah, I mean, you're right. If you have empathy, you, you know, and you, you I can tell you my struggle. I mean, it's, as I said, I was I'm talking to you. It's easy because it's you. So I don't have to think about a pronoun. But when I was talking to, you know, preparing for the podcast, talking to some colleagues, talking to my wife, and, yeah, I was really struggling and I kept correcting myself and I.
01;02;10;22 - 01;02;34;19
Riccardo
And your words are very, very helpful, right? Very, very helpful. Because as individuals, we don't want to hurt to most people don't want to hurt. You don't know if your mistakes is going to hurt somebody. And so being reassured that, you know, I see you, I hear you, I know you're trying. That's good enough. It's very, very encouraging, you know, and I think as a society we don't do that enough, right?
01;02;34;19 - 01;02;40;23
Riccardo
We don't give we don't give people the benefit of doubt enough. And yeah, I'm saddened by that.
01;02;40;25 - 01;03;06;05
Annie
Maybe you know, if you and I were ever on a panel together, they'd say, I'm too optimistic. Often, like I'm often said, I'm too idealistic or I think, you know, it's I think too highly of people sometimes. But I think, you know, I think of someone like you. You're a leader in a major company, a major global company, and you're willing to sit down and spend, you know, an hour of your evening with me to ask about my experience.
01;03;06;08 - 01;03;35;19
Annie
I don't think this was possible 15 years ago. I don't think this was possible 30 years ago. And all the women, all the trans women, all the queer people, all these people who trailblazers that like their legacy is sort of the shoulders I'm standing on to be able to do this too. And your I would say, I think cis people who are just encountering transits and queerness for the first time are sort of being confronted with a wall of a movement that's been decades, centuries in the making.
01;03;35;21 - 01;03;54;21
Annie
And so we have to be empathetic that there's going to be some stumbling. It's not going to be absolutely perfect and smooth. And who wants perfect humans? That doesn't sound right. So I'd rather, you know, as in me, what's a safe person is somebody who's trying. And I'll take effort over ignorance any day, any day and where I work.
01;03;54;21 - 01;04;21;14
Annie
And so I'm very, very inspired that there's leaders like you in these big companies. I know you're not alone. I know you sit in a in a colleague ship of people who want better for the industry and want our major projects to be as successful as possible. And if eyes are being opened to the potential that real diversity, not tokenism, not just what we write on a Facebook post or a social media post, but real diversity where we really think that these voices can make our projects better.
01;04;21;17 - 01;04;38;09
Annie
That is exciting to me, and that's why I feel like there's going to be a ton of opportunity, and I look forward to the day. I, I just to preface, I can't right now overly advocate for trans people to come into the industry because I know it's not really safe. I'm not going to put people in harm's way.
01;04;38;11 - 01;04;55;14
Annie
But what I can do is say, I really believe, and I believe with my whole heart that this industry is going in a direction where everyone is welcome. I believe we'll get there because I've seen the people working in it, and I know that it's possible we just those of us who are already in it, need to do our little part.
01;04;55;16 - 01;05;10;21
Annie
And then when we feel like that big wave is coming, it will come where there's a big understanding, just like there was with women, you know, you see women at the boardroom table now, you don't blink an eye, you don't think anything of it. That's completely normal. But for your parents, that would have been strange and bizarre. And how did that happen?
01;05;10;23 - 01;05;31;29
Annie
That wave is coming. And at that point, I will be standing with open arms, begging more and more trans people to come to the come to the industry, because I know how exciting and fulfilling it has been for me outside of my transness. Just as a human, this industry has changed my life and given me a whole new perspective on the world, and I want to share that with others when it's safe for them to do so.
01;05;32;02 - 01;05;34;18
Riccardo
What a beautiful podcast mean.
01;05;34;21 - 01;05;36;14
Annie
Thank you. I've had a lot of fun.
01;05;36;18 - 01;05;58;03
Riccardo
Yeah, this has been a great podcast and I have to say, I have to praise your courage. I didn't even think of the courage that it took for you to come here and share your experience, share your, your journey. And, yeah, I mean, I'm humble. I, you know, it doesn't happen a lot, but I am completely humbled by by this conversation.
01;05;58;03 - 01;06;15;03
Riccardo
And, yeah, I almost didn't want to end this podcast because I it's been tremendous. I've learned so much. Right? I mean, even just as I said, when when I, you know, you asked me to prep interview, a prep discussion, you know, you asked me how I identify. I think there was a first person in my life that somebody asked me that.
01;06;15;06 - 01;06;46;26
Riccardo
So that was a huge learning experience for me. And as you know, I emailed you that I realized I, I never even asked you because, again, I'm learning and I've so much learned, you know, and you told me about, you know, you're non-binary. So I had to I even had to look that up. And then I, I've learned even more because I the only, the only transgender person I'm very familiar with, which is actually not is gender fluid was the Eddie Izzard that was, you know, a very medium British comedian.
01;06;46;28 - 01;07;13;11
Riccardo
And I remember back in the days, I mean, in my 20s, I used to watch him as fluid. So I don't actually know how to pronounce to use, watch them. Yeah, I guess that's the right one. And it was my first experience, and that was also very confused because some days they would come on stage dressed as a man, and some days they would come on stage dressed as a woman.
01;07;13;13 - 01;07;22;20
Riccardo
But at the end of the day, all I was focused on was his humor and his jokes or their dad jokes. It's really challenging. It's really challenging, right?
01;07;22;20 - 01;07;45;27
Annie
I mean, it's hard, it's hard for me. Like, it's hard, like, I just I wish I could share a whole bunch of empathy out into the world with anybody who's struggling with pronouns. It's hard. It takes a lot of mental focus. But like any language, I'm sure everybody who's learned a second language, there's a time when you stop translating, sort of live and you just think in the language that will happen.
01;07;45;29 - 01;08;12;01
Annie
Trust me, we'll all get there. I believe it, we will. But yeah, Eddie Izzard and folks like like them are those trailblazers. I was talking about that like I couldn't be who I am, and I couldn't. I couldn't have gotten the vocabulary because my gender has always been this way. And as soon as I had the language and somebody explained to me what non-binary was, I was like, oh my God, I've been looking for that word my whole life.
01;08;12;01 - 01;08;35;10
Annie
And when I came out to my family, which I was very lucky, I had very supportive family. My mother even was like, oh my God, yes, that explains so much of what we watched you go through as a little little kid. Like they sent me to kindergarten in a dress my first day of school, and I went to the lost and found and found boy clothes and air quotes boy clothes to change into.
01;08;35;10 - 01;08;51;11
Annie
And they called my mom on the first day of school because I refused to put the dress back on. And then there were years later that I was asked, well, do you actually want to be a boy? And I said, no, I don't want to be a boy. That sounds awful. And like no one could really wrap their heads around it and I couldn't either.
01;08;51;11 - 01;09;12;13
Annie
I went, I would if you took a unfortunate tour and my Facebook photos history, you'd see hyper feminine, hyper masculine. I was so trying so hard to find my gender because I figured I just wasn't doing it enough so I would have to be more feminine. So I'll probably feel more like a woman if I just do the more feminine things and be more feminine.
01;09;12;13 - 01;09;32;09
Annie
Or maybe I am. Maybe I am just a tomboy, and maybe I'll just lean into that and I will be more that. And I never got there. And then all of a sudden somebody shared that word and explained to me what it was and every anxiety I ever had about who I was and why I was so different.
01;09;32;12 - 01;10;01;00
Annie
And like, you know, people always talk about lifting off weight off your chest. The most full feeling I'd have of like, oh, okay, somebody else knows what this is. I'm not crazy. And I can just stop worrying about it for now, because now I know what it's all been this whole time. It's like finding out you've, you know, if you've been struggling to breathe because you have a lung tumor, and then somebody finally tells you what it is and you go, okay, well, that's why I've been struggling to breathe.
01;10;01;00 - 01;10;28;11
Annie
I never understood it would drove me crazy. That is the beauty of finding out who you are and what this movement has meant for people like me, as we can finally feel fullness in who we are. And now the next step is bringing the world along with us to see us as equal. You know, contributing people in the world that are our gender or our lack of gender or whatever it is, makes us better and therefore better for whoever we're interacting with.
01;10;28;11 - 01;10;37;23
Annie
And it's a more fulsome experience, a more authentic experience. So I don't know if that's a tangent and a half. We don't need to because you get your energy to cut that off. But anyways.
01;10;37;25 - 01;10;51;12
Riccardo
It's I wanted that. No no no no, this this is about actually bringing this to the front because that way that no. Look, as I said, it's I think one thing my mother taught me as a child was like, you know, we fear the different.
01;10;51;12 - 01;10;52;05
Annie
Yes.
01;10;52;08 - 01;11;05;13
Riccardo
And so I always gave people the benefit of doubt. Right? I mean, it's okay. You don't, you don't. You're ignorant. And the word ignorant used from, you know, for the specific Latin meaning, which is like, you just don't know, right? You don't know.
01;11;05;14 - 01;11;08;17
Annie
Yeah. You just don't hold that piece of knowledge.
01;11;08;20 - 01;11;28;27
Riccardo
And we human being, right? We we fear what we don't understand and what we don't know. We fear it. And that's, that is also that's also a human feeling. Right. So I love your positivity because that's what you're doing. You're right. You're really just extending your arms and say, no, I mean I can help you. I can help you understand.
01;11;28;27 - 01;11;44;23
Riccardo
I can help you understand me so that we can get along because we're all humans. And I want to help you understand because I'm very negative. I actually believe that most people are just ignorant and without malice. Right.
01;11;44;26 - 01;12;01;09
Annie
I can't agree with you more. And we talked in my project a little bit about it, but I have it my last actually. We worked for the same company for a period of time, and in that company I had the opportunity to work with a gentleman who worked out in the field on track, and he was a trackman for life.
01;12;01;09 - 01;12;21;08
Annie
He grew up in the trade. It's a very, very male dominated locking women trade, and I don't know how it started. I don't remember the exact question, but he made a comment about trans ness and it wasn't derogatory. It wasn't bigoted. It was just a little off. And it made me sort of feel like, oh, I don't think he gets it.
01;12;21;10 - 01;12;39;29
Annie
And so I invited him into a conversation and I said, well, do you think what do you think about that? And and then I said, well, did you know that I'm trans? And his eyes like, opened up and he went, no. I was like, yeah, I'm trans. And then all of a sudden, because he had already built trust with me, he'd already known that I was a good person that he liked.
01;12;39;29 - 01;12;58;29
Annie
And we had lots of conversations over, over at the time on the project together. And then that conversation just continued for what turned out to be years. You know, over the two years we're on the project together. He's asking, oh, well, I learned about this. What does that mean? Or and sometimes I just say, I don't know, I haven't come across that either in the world of trans this.
01;12;58;29 - 01;13;20;09
Annie
And he, he was so open, so caring, so accepting. And I'm sure he took that out into the field with him. I'm sure. And I know because of who he is, transphobia is not going to be accepted in his crews. Open transphobia, open transphobic jokes are not going to be okay. And he would have gotten there over time.
01;13;20;09 - 01;13;34;26
Annie
But I was so blessed and so lucky to be a part of that for him. And now every crew that he's on is going to be more sensitive and have an opportunity to learn, because they might learn from him. They might listen to him in a way they wouldn't have listened to me. That's allyship. That's the benefit of talking about it.
01;13;34;26 - 01;14;00;23
Annie
And yes, there's always risks, but I have to hinge on that. Those little moments that I had with that person shout out Sean, that person changed my view forever of what people have the potential to understand. I painted him with a very particular brush. If somebody who may never understand, and he dove in with good questions with me and an openness to learn, I now have a whole new a whole new appreciation of what?
01;14;00;26 - 01;14;21;03
Annie
Who can actually change that I didn't have before. And I'm so grateful to him. I hope he's happy to know more trans people too. But yeah, we're just this is the journey rom from said like, you know, life is just walking each other home. We're all just walking each other home. We're far more alike than we're different, and we're not others.
01;14;21;03 - 01;14;30;13
Annie
We're all in this together and in major projects, even more so because we can't, you know, other each other. We need everybody on the team in this industry.
01;14;30;16 - 01;14;35;07
Riccardo
And on that. I'm gonna let you have the last word and we're going to close on that. I want to thank you, honey.
01;14;35;10 - 01;14;37;09
Annie
Thank you. That's very kind.
01;14;37;12 - 01;14;41;12
Riccardo
And, Yeah, hopefully we'll cross passes again.
01;14;41;15 - 01;14;59;12
Annie
I hope so, Ricardo. This has been so kind. I really am so grateful to you for giving this platform. And I hope I didn't budget too bad, but the, what you're doing and what you have done, and I know that it might feel like you don't have a lot of people listening all the time, but it matters.
01;14;59;12 - 01;15;24;13
Annie
And what you're doing matters, and you're a voice that people listen to. And so anything that you say, people put your the credibility of your professional career behind who you are as a professional, who you are as an academic all stands behind these moments. And so it's very, very important and very appreciated that you're putting yourself out there to do this, even if it doesn't always feel like it's truly appreciated.
01;15;24;13 - 01;15;27;17
Annie
It is especially for people like me who are new to the industry.
01;15;27;20 - 01;15;31;20
Riccardo
Thank you for the kind words. And with that, we'll close there. Okay. Thank you very much.
01;15;31;25 - 01;15;34;12
Annie
Have a good night. We're kind of.
01;15;34;15 - 01;15;57;28
Riccardo
That's it for this episode of Navigating Major Problems. I hope you found today's conversation as informative and thought provoking as I did. If you enjoyed this conversation, and please consider subscribing and leaving a review. I would also like to invite you to continue the conversation by joining me on my personal LinkedIn at Ricardo Cosentino.
01;15;58;00 - 01;16;27;01
Riccardo
Listening to the next episode, we will continue to explore the latest trends and challenges in major program management. Our next in-depth conversation promises to continue to dive into topics such as leadership, risk management, and the impact of emerging technology in infrastructure. It's a conversation you're not going to want to miss. Thanks for listening to navigate the major problems, and I look forward to keeping the conversation going.