In this episode of Mastering Major Projects, Riccardo Cosentino and co-host Shormila Chatterjee sit down with Marni Dicker, a dynamic and bilingual senior executive recognized as one of Canada’s Top 100 Most Powerful Women and one of the Top 25 Most Influential Lawyers in the country. Marni’s accolades include the General Counsel Award for Business Achievement and the Premier’s Award of Excellence from the Province of Alberta for her groundbreaking work on the Calgary Courthouse Public-Private Partnership. With an impressive background in corporate law and a strategic leadership role in the Canadian Premier League, Marni shares her extraordinary journey from criminal law to becoming a transformative figure in infrastructure and business strategy. Known for her ability to deliver projects on time and within budget, she discusses the importance of diversity and inclusion in leadership and her commitment to mentoring the next generation of female leaders. "Remember, I knew nothing about construction and infrastructure engineering, and they would ask me a very substantive question. What would you do if this happened on one of your sites? And I did the following. I would certainly call external counsel who is specialized in that area, and I would ensure that we got the best advice. Basically, I was punting it down the line because I had no idea, none, how to answer their questions. What I quickly learned is that's what they liked. No one is expected to know everything you are supposed to be able to know how to use your resources, how to get the right expert advice." – Marni Dicker
In this episode of Mastering Major Projects, Riccardo Cosentino and co-host Shormila Chatterjee sit down with Marni Dicker, a dynamic and bilingual senior executive recognized as one of Canada’s Top 100 Most Powerful Women and one of the Top 25 Most Influential Lawyers in the country. Marni’s accolades include the General Counsel Award for Business Achievement and the Premier’s Award of Excellence from the Province of Alberta for her groundbreaking work on the Calgary Courthouse Public-Private Partnership.
With an impressive background in corporate law and a strategic leadership role in the Canadian Premier League, Marni shares her extraordinary journey from criminal law to becoming a transformative figure in infrastructure and business strategy. Known for her ability to deliver projects on time and within budget, she discusses the importance of diversity and inclusion in leadership and her commitment to mentoring the next generation of female leaders.
"Remember, I knew nothing about construction and infrastructure engineering, and they would ask me a very substantive question. What would you do if this happened on one of your sites? And I did the following. I would certainly call external counsel who is specialized in that area, and I would ensure that we got the best advice. Basically, I was punting it down the line because I had no idea, none, how to answer their questions. What I quickly learned is that's what they liked. No one is expected to know everything you are supposed to be able to know how to use your resources, how to get the right expert advice." – Marni Dicker
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[00:00:00] Riccardo Cosentino: Welcome to a special miniseries of Navigating Major Programs podcast called Master Builder, where we will spotlight the remarkable stories of accomplished female leaders in the infrastructure space. I'm your host, Riccardo Cosentino, and alongside me is my co host, Shomila Chatterjee. On Navigating Major Programs, we explore the complexity of major program management from governance and risk to technology adoption.
[00:00:28] In this mini series, we will dive deep into the journey of women who have not only shaped the infrastructure landscape, but have also set new industry standards.
[00:00:38] Shormila Chatterjee: Our goal is to inspire and empower the next generation of female leaders in infrastructure by showcasing the incredible paths these women have forged.
[00:00:46] Through their stories, we'll explore the challenges, accomplishments, and growth that define their careers.
[00:00:54] Riccardo Cosentino: Hi Marni, how are you doing? It's great to have you here today.
[00:00:57] Marni Dicker: Hey ricardo, it's great to be [00:01:00] here. Thanks for having me.
[00:01:01] Riccardo Cosentino: It's been a while, I'm so glad that we get to do this. Why don't we maybe, obviously you and I go back and you also met Shumila before, but maybe for the audience, the people that are listening today, can you tell us a little bit more about yourself, your career, and just so that get things rolling and on this great podcast.
[00:01:22] Marni Dicker: Sounds great. Sure. Wow. Talking about myself. That's always a hard topic. Something that I don't particularly love doing, but let me take a first crack at it. Who am I? I identify myself first and foremost as mom. I am a mother of two amazing sons, Ryan and Lee, and I always mention them because they are so For me, Ricardo, balance has always been number one balance has been number one in my career, in my life.
[00:01:52] And so when anyone asks me, who are you tell us a little bit about yourself. It always starts with Ryan and Lee. [00:02:00] When you talk about me professionally, people will always say, oh, and has she talked to you about Ryan and Lee? And I use that Ricardo very much as a mentoring moment, because I do believe, and as a senior woman in the industry, I really feel that it's important to talk about our families and to show that.
[00:02:19] It is okay to be a successful man or woman and, have a family, be proud of your family, attend family functions, and I've done that all throughout my wonderful career. Talking about my career, gosh, we can, we go way back, Ricardo, so you know me, from the early days. I'm a lawyer by training, and it's funny, we can talk about it a little bit later if you like.
[00:02:44] How I moved out of the realm of law and much more into the realm of infrastructure and development. So I started my career crazy enough. I started my career as a criminal lawyer.
[00:02:57] Shormila Chatterjee: Wow.
[00:02:57] Marni Dicker: Then I quickly realized that was not [00:03:00] the right career for me. That was not the right area of law. So I went into private practice where I was a litigator for a couple of years and only a couple of years.
[00:03:10] And then I made my way to SNC Lavalin, Where you and I, Ricardo, first got to meet, then I've done a bunch of really cool things between then and now I am the Executive Vice President, Infrastructure and Chief Legal Officer for the Canadian Premier League. Which is the tier one men's professional soccer in Canada, and one might wonder, like, how in the heck did you go from being a criminal lawyer to a corporate lawyer to a career and infrastructure and development and now being a sports executive?
[00:03:44] Believe it or not, there are links.
[00:03:47] Riccardo Cosentino: Wow. Do we want to explore those?
[00:03:49] Shormila Chatterjee: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think when what strikes me about your career, Barney is that you see a little bit of a through line, but I'm also curious as somebody [00:04:00] who. I remember talking and I've talked to younger people in infrastructure who are, have a very clear in their mind path, by 30, I want to do this and I want to, in their mind, it's a kind of straight line, but it's, it, that's not really how life works.
[00:04:13] And I'm curious to hear your, just picking up on what you said, your, maybe let's talk, start with your first transition from litigation to infrastructure. was there a moment that triggered that? was that kind of where you wanted to end up all along? Just how did that happen?
[00:04:29] Marni Dicker: I'm so glad you asked that question because, Things happen for reasons and the best laid plans never really work out. I really expected to see myself as a Bay Street lawyer for my entire career
[00:04:41] Shormila Chatterjee: and
[00:04:42] Marni Dicker: I was working my butt off on Bay Street and I got a phone call one day from somebody at this big mega firm called S& C
[00:04:51] Shormila Chatterjee: Lavellin and
[00:04:52] Marni Dicker: they were calling to interview me for an opportunity with them.
[00:04:57] And I had to say, I don't know what you're talking [00:05:00] about. I didn't apply for a role. I'm a corporate lawyer at this law firm. And so here's how the story went. My really good friend, Barb was negotiating a deal with Essency Lavalin for their lease. In Toronto, and she was representing the landlord, and I think negotiations went well, and they really liked Barb, and they then turned to her and offered her a job in their newly formed Toronto office to, I don't know if it was to head up legal or to be corporate counsel.
[00:05:32] And she very quickly declined because she was in a law firm that was made up of herself and her father. But she said. if you like me and you like my style and you like the way I do things, I really think you should call my friend, Marnie Dicker, because she's like working crazy hours. And I really think that, she would be exactly what you're looking for.
[00:05:53] She forgot to tell me about that conversation. So when they called me and then they [00:06:00] explained to me why they were contacting me, I thought, no, this is crazy. I don't know anything about engineering, construction, infrastructure, development. They've made a mistake, but they were offering to fly me to Montreal to come have the interviews.
[00:06:15] Shormila Chatterjee: And
[00:06:15] Marni Dicker: I said to myself, Hey, Marnie, your parents live in Montreal, your sister live in Montreal. Someone's offering you a free trip to Montreal. Just go to the darned interview.
[00:06:24] Shormila Chatterjee: Yeah.
[00:06:24] Marni Dicker: So I did. And I like to tell this story because this was, in my mind, the world's worst interview. I left that interview saying, Oh, my God, I can't believe that I did this and I look like such an idiot.
[00:06:41] And lo and behold, they called me back and they said, we'd like you to come back for a 2nd interview and they said, we thought that you'd be perfect. And instead of saying, thank you. I said, why would I be perfect? I really didn't believe in myself. And I'm thinking like, [00:07:00] they're nuts.
[00:07:00] And if they want me, this is definitely not even a place that I want to be because they obviously don't know how to hire talent. Yeah. Well, their answer was really telling. Their answer was, you have the right personality. You have the right drive. And we loved your answers to our substantive questions.
[00:07:19] Remember, I knew nothing about construction and infrastructure engineering, and they would ask me a very substantive question. What would you do if this happened on one of your sites? And I did the following. I would certainly call external counsel who is specialized in that area, and I would ensure that we got the best advice.
[00:07:42] Basically, I was punting it down the line because I had no idea, none, how to answer their questions. What I quickly learned is that's what they liked.
[00:07:51] Shormila Chatterjee: Yeah,
[00:07:51] Marni Dicker: no one is expected to know everything you are supposed to be able to know how to use your resources, how to get the right expert advice. So. [00:08:00] Very long way of telling you, I fell into this amazing role at S& C Gavilan because my friends didn't like the career direction that I was headed and somehow I decided to take a chance and move from Bay Street in house.
[00:08:16] To a engineering conglomerate and that truly changed the entire direction of my career. I mean, I look back at those days and I always wonder where would I be now? If I never got that phone call? Well, I think I would be A partner on Bay Street, probably in some sort of corporate commercial legal practice.
[00:08:38] I never would have had the amount of fun that I've had over the last, I'm scared to say, last 30 years.
[00:08:45] Shormila Chatterjee: I think some of us suffer from imposter syndrome, even if we're in the career we studied for, or, had preparation to where that I'm just curious, when you look back at it now, what was the first, Couple of months or years, were you shaking in your boots?
[00:08:59] was it [00:09:00] a, kind of bravery that you're like, well, I have not much to lose, what was your kind of mindset in such a big transition from, where you thought you were going to where you did end up as a, such a Titan in your, in your field now.
[00:09:11] Marni Dicker: Fake it till you make it.
[00:09:13] I mean, that is truly my motto. And it holds true today. I mean, We are all imposters because nobody is perfect. so I too suffer from imposter syndrome and I would say I suffer from imposter syndrome up until today. Really. I always wonder why do they want me on this podcast? What am I gonna say? That's so interesting that anyone else will want to hear.
[00:09:40] Gosh, I truly do suffer from that. And I think most people, unless they have the most giant ego around, I think most people do suffer from that. It's good. You could be humble. You should be open to new ideas. You should ask a lot of questions. I've done that throughout my career. I've always said, [00:10:00] sorry for asking the stupid question and then you get the typical answer.
[00:10:03] No question is stupid. Well, a lot of mine were really stupid. But I asked and asked until I actually developed a certain level of comfort in the subject area that I'm working on, but I've always acknowledged. I am not an expert. I'm a human being. I'm a relationships person.
[00:10:21] Shormila Chatterjee: I'm
[00:10:21] Marni Dicker: smart. I'm able to pick up on difficult concepts quickly,
[00:10:26] Shormila Chatterjee: but I don't
[00:10:27] Marni Dicker: know everything.
[00:10:28] So I lean on the people around me. I rely on my teams. I give the people on my teams, the rope that they need to hang themselves. If they really shouldn't be in the role that they're in or quite frankly, give them the rope to be extremely successful. And when my team members are successful, I'm successful.
[00:10:49] So I truly believe. You always have to be a little bit humble and acknowledge that you don't know everything. Ask those [00:11:00] questions. And then suddenly you find yourself with opportunities, with promotions that you never would have dreamed of. And that's really been the case for me.
[00:11:10] Shormila Chatterjee: Oh, wow, that's
[00:11:12] Riccardo Cosentino: money. I want to take you down a trip memory link.
[00:11:14] so you said you joined us and see, I'm assuming what must be early 2000. Yes,
[00:11:22] Marni Dicker: exactly. It was 99.
[00:11:24] Riccardo Cosentino: what was it like to be. I haven't been with the company now for 14 years myself and so I know the history and so. Were the good old days as we remember them. But yeah. I'm interested because I, I think I, I remember you telling me some of the story, but you had some really interesting engagement and you, I think you had, you told me a story about going into some of thekazaki to negotiate deals back there.
[00:11:53] Can you talk a little bit about those experiences? Because I mean, those must have been really interesting. And experiences that [00:12:00] you had.
[00:12:00] Marni Dicker: Absolutely. Like I said, the opportunity that SNC Live Online gave me was incredible. It exposed me back to the imposter syndrome. It exposed me to public private partnerships.
[00:12:15] I'll start with that. I remember it was 2002, and we were working on a project. It was the Consolidated Courthouse in Calgary, Alberta, and we had played a little bit in the P3 space with Highway 407. But before that, we really hadn't done all that many, and I was spending a lot of time in Calgary.
[00:12:37] Calgary is not Kazakhstan. We can talk about that too, Ricarda, but I was spending a lot of time, a lot of time in Calgary. Trying to figure out what is a P3 and then I remember my boss, Charlie Ray, who's also been a huge mentor and champion of mine, who I'm deeply indebted to Charlie called me and he said, Marty, [00:13:00] they want to do a rent abatement.
[00:13:02] What do you think about that? And I remember so clearly saying to Charlie. A what? I've never heard of a rent abatement. And he said, well, all these Aussies from Macquarie's Bank, like they're all talking about rent abatements and how they did this on this deal and on that deal. And so I quickly started doing my research to find out, what is rent abatement?
[00:13:27] And lo and behold, I figured it out and it was a concept that is used in public private partnerships and Calgary courthouse was very interesting because we ended up going to treasury board 11 times the deal changed from a P3 because Alberta in those days did not need anybody else's money. So, premier Klein figured it out after the 11th trip to treasury board.
[00:13:50] He said, why aren't we using our own money
[00:13:54] Shormila Chatterjee: and they use
[00:13:54] Marni Dicker: their own money. And it wasn't a public private partnership, but because of the great work that we had [00:14:00] done over the prior nine months, and got to stay in the deal, and ultimately was involved in the operations and maintenance of the consolidated courthouse example.
[00:14:10] Yeah, I mean, so cool. One example of something S& C opened my eyes to,
[00:14:17] Shormila Chatterjee: and
[00:14:18] Marni Dicker: at my time at S& C, I worked in a variety of divisions, but allowed me the opportunity for some cool, exotic, crazy travel.I had the opportunity to negotiate deals in Abu Dhabi and Dubai. I got to Istanbul, places that a woman wouldn't necessarily always go, particularly in the early 2000s.
[00:14:46] And,what's more interesting for me is the fact that even back then gender didn't matter. It didn't matter to the people at SNC. They were sending who they thought was the best person for the job. And thankfully, [00:15:00] at times, they chose me. And when I was traveling abroad, I think maybe I was missing a few screws in my brain.
[00:15:08] Because I didn't even appreciate that I was a woman. I was a person. I was a business person that was traveling abroad to, to do business. And I think I know where Ricardo wants me to go. So I'm going to talk very briefly about an insane experience that happened to me when I was in Abu Dhabi.When I was there, again, as a woman traveling and Again, S& C prepared their stuff very well when we went to foreign countries, we got foreign country training, and we learned what the values and the mores and the customs were so that we would ensure that we behaved appropriately. So, of course, I knew I shouldn't go out after dark alone, and I shouldn't talk to strangers, and I should accept an offering of tea, if somebody were to offer me tea. Anyhow, I [00:16:00] was They're alone. It's a good thing. This was 20 something years ago, so they can't fire me. I was in my hotel, which was attached to a beautiful mall, and I was bored to tears.
[00:16:11] It was something like 7 o'clock at night, and I didn't feel like staying in my hotel for the rest of the night, but I really appreciated I wasn't allowed to go out, and it wasn't safe, and this was my commitment as an employee. So I convinced myself that it was actually okay to go to the mall, because the mall was attached to the hotel, so really I wasn't leaving the hotel.
[00:16:29] And I found myself in a shoe store and a, in a beautiful women's shoe store. The shoes were more expensive than anything that I have ever seen in my life. And there was a pair that was probably equal to about 10, 000 Canadian dollars. And I said, I better try on this pair of shoes because never in my life will I own something like this.
[00:16:52] And I was leaning down, putting on the shoes. And there was a lovely British voice behind me and the [00:17:00] voice said, Oh, those shoes are so beautiful. you will likely find a husband. And I turned around and I said, Oh gosh, I already have one of those. And I may have said a couple of other things.
[00:17:16] And she looked at me and she was fully covered in her burka. And she said, You can't say things like this here. You can get yourself into a lot of trouble and I'm thinking good Lord I wasn't even supposed to leave that hotel room and here I am saying stupid things But then as we engaged in conversation, guess what happens?
[00:17:38] She says to me, would you like to go for a tea? Oh, gosh,ding. I'm thinking I have to say yes. So I did. And we ended up going into a women's tea room that was contained somewhere in the mall. And it was absolutely fascinating to me. The moment we walked into this all women's. [00:18:00] venue. She took off her coverings.
[00:18:03] And what I saw was the most beautiful woman who we talked for hours. I learned all about her education at the London School of Economics.
[00:18:12] Shormila Chatterjee: And I
[00:18:13] Marni Dicker: tell this story because I engaged with somebody that I never in my life would otherwise have met, have had an opportunity to talk to, to learn about their customs and their mores.
[00:18:26] Straight from their mouth and by the end of the night, I had tears in my eyes and I had tears in my eyes because here was a woman that I felt was smarter than I was. That was better educated that I was, but she was brought back home to be wife number 2 or 3 and she was telling me. You are so fortunate.
[00:18:46] You are a married woman that is traveling alone on business using your brain to do good, and it really resonated with me how lucky I am to be Canadian, how lucky I was to have such a [00:19:00] great company that believed in me that afforded those opportunities.
[00:19:03] Shormila Chatterjee: Oh, my
[00:19:04] Marni Dicker: goodness. What a
[00:19:06] Shormila Chatterjee: story. I didn't know where that was gonna go, but I'm glad it ended the way it did.
[00:19:10] Wow, that's
[00:19:12] Riccardo Cosentino: Yeah, I only knew she had the stories. I've never heard all of them, but I knew she had a lot of them. This was a good one, Marnie. Thank you for sharing this one. Oh, wow. It's
[00:19:21] Marni Dicker: my pleasure. Oh, yes, there's lots of fun stories. One thing about me and my career, if we're talking about me Yeah.
[00:19:29] It's, we gotta have fun. You have to have fun in what you're doing and I've always said when it stops being fun is when I show myself the door because we spend so much of our time at work with our work colleagues that it has to feel almost as good as feeling at home. And maybe that's why my career trajectory wasn't straight.
[00:19:54] Now, it might have been straight if SNC didn't encounter the problems that it did in 2012, which [00:20:00] unfortunately led to my departing SNC.
[00:20:03] Shormila Chatterjee: If
[00:20:04] Marni Dicker: that didn't happen, I think my career might have been quite linear, and I probably would have stayed had they wanted me to stay until retirement.
[00:20:13] Shormila Chatterjee: But
[00:20:14] Marni Dicker: things happen for reasons.
[00:20:15] And then that brought me to Infrastructure Ontario, where I had the privilege of being a chief commercial officer and general counsel.
[00:20:26] Shormila Chatterjee: So
[00:20:26] Marni Dicker: when one door closes, another door opens. And so my career was not straight, and I was no longer in house in the industry. Public Corporation, but rather, I was having the opportunity to now deliver projects from the government side to build.
[00:20:44] Social infrastructure and to use all of the skills that I attained while I was at snc. to sit on the other side of the table, to be the governments, to be the ones that have the projects to let it really showed me how things [00:21:00] are done. and less. And until you're on the inside, it's really difficult to appreciate the complexity in the planning of these major projects before anybody even knows that they exist.
[00:21:12] Shormila Chatterjee: Wow. That's incredible. And picking up on How you, you started the conversation about balance. And I'm curious when you say kind of chief commercial officer and general counsel, like those to me sound like very different sort of skill sets and even personality traits, if I'm generalizing, how did you balance such different maybe mandates or objectives?
[00:21:32] and did you ever find tension between I would consider general counsel, maybe. really about protecting the organization and commercial. It might be about growth and strategy, which sound a little bit, there might be some tension. Did you ever challenge those kind of two that hyphenated role or did it all come together organically?
[00:21:52] Marni Dicker: What a good question. No one's ever asked me that. it's interesting, legal, a title with legal in it and responsibilities [00:22:00] that include legal were always very important to me. I was never willing to give up my identity as a lawyer or as a lawyer. The skills that I have as a lawyer. So whatever general counsel or whatever chief legal officer title I held, I always considered to be my primary role.
[00:22:20] Shormila Chatterjee: I see.
[00:22:20] Marni Dicker: But then as I got more senior or I was hired into different functions, I didn't only want to be a lawyer. I wanted to use my business skills, my commercial mindedness to be able to Work that avenue as well. So I've always ensured that there was no conflict in the behaviors. And what I was doing, so I would never run off doing something from a commercial standpoint that would then potentially lead to legal implications or a reason for the legal departments that I was overseeing to have to respond to.
[00:22:57] I think that I organically [00:23:00] just managed it well, so that I was able to do both,
[00:23:04] Shormila Chatterjee: but
[00:23:05] Marni Dicker: let's not kid ourselves the legal title. Is very much a legal title. I feel that I've been much more of a business person with a legal background than a lawyer doing some business. And that holds super true for what I'm doing right now at the Canadian Premier League.
[00:23:24] So I'm ultimately. The Canadian Premier League chief legal officer,
[00:23:30] Shormila Chatterjee: but
[00:23:30] Marni Dicker: there's not a whole heck of a lot of major legal issues that arise, but if and when they do, they cross my office and my desk and I will either handle it or, as I told SNC 30 something years ago, I will send it to experts in this area because sports law is very specialized.
[00:23:49] And while I'm learning about it, I certainly wouldn't want. To advise, so my main functions at the Canadian Premier League. Again, you wonder how [00:24:00] is an infrastructure and development lawyer now working inside a professional sports league. Well, I was hired there really for infrastructure and development.
[00:24:10] I am ultimately responsible at the CPL to get the necessary infrastructure built across the country so that we are able to expand our league. Currently we sit at eight teams across the country and we are expanding to 16 teams by 2032. So I get the privilege of going across the country, meeting with different mayors, looking at different municipalities, and really Figuring out where would be the appropriate location to house an expansion team.
[00:24:44] And then I work with the local municipalities, both on project development, project, finance, zonings, and permissions to be able to do what I'm good at, which is major infrastructure projects and build the necessary stadiums. [00:25:00] Wow. So, Will there be legal work attached to the building of new stadiums? Of course, but that would be something that I would, without a doubt, be handing out to external counsel that know how to handle these major projects and then take their advice from there.
[00:25:17] Shormila Chatterjee: Wow, that's fascinating. And it does come back to, like you said, the similarities, if you saw it on paper, this move Might be befuddling to some, but then as you explain it, it makes perfect sense why you would be, the best woman for the job. And just curious, now with CPL have you seen,I'm making a huge presumption and maybe I'm wrong, but is it a male dominated environment?
[00:25:37] Do you see kind of leadership styles? Very similar to when you were in infrastructure? what's the kind of the C suite experience been like for you relative to your previous experience?
[00:25:47] Marni Dicker: Well, I would say it's very similar to my previous experience because I'm often the lone woman at the table, right?
[00:25:53] That's the way it was in the early days. And yeah, that's pretty much how it is for me right now [00:26:00] being a men's professional league, our commissioner's office, which I stood in is made up of. Five individuals, four of whom are male.
[00:26:10] Shormila Chatterjee: But
[00:26:10] Marni Dicker: again, I'm one of the lucky ones. I don't see them as men. I see them as colleagues.
[00:26:16] And they don't see me as a woman. They see me as a colleague. So I really feel that, I punch at or above my weight. And so I'm able to fulfill whatever it is that needs to be fulfilled without the difficulty. Nonetheless, I am a champion for women and I am very actively at the table saying our next senior hire, all other things being equal needs to be a woman because I feel that when you have men and women sitting around the boardroom table, there is a better sharing of ideas and I do think that there's a better outcome.
[00:26:52] Shormila Chatterjee: So
[00:26:54] Marni Dicker: I will continue to push for more women around the executive table as I feel I've really [00:27:00] successfully done for the last decade and a half, young women need trailblazers, young women need champions. I have made a commitment a long time ago that I will be that person because I had those people who are there for me.
[00:27:16] And now it's my time to get back.
[00:27:18] Riccardo Cosentino: I want to pick up on something you just said. You said, I don't see these people, these men as men, I see them as colleagues. So how much is that part of the secret sauce part of the success? That you're going to, you have achieved is that, it goes both ways.
[00:27:35] Yeah. I mean, you are in a male dominated environment, but it starts with you. It starts with your approach to the situation. Do you think that's an important component of succeeding in a male dominated environment?
[00:27:48] Marni Dicker: Absolutely. Ricardo, unfortunately, or fortunately for me, I'm a tough cookie. So I'm strong, and I'm not afraid to speak up [00:28:00] or speak my mind or address issues that bothered me.
[00:28:04] So I do attribute, my inherent personality to the fact that I was able to just, and I'm not going to say dish it back, but I was able to communicate and participate really at the same level as, The guys. So the secret sauce is definitely within the person. But I also feel very concerned and worried for women that just have different personalities than mine.
[00:28:32] So they don't feel comfortable speaking up. Maybe that's not their culture. So while it does start with them, sometimes it's super difficult for them to be able to speak their mind, address what's concerning them. And the advice that I give to those ladies with that type of personality. Is okay. So then how are we going to help you find your voice if finding your voice isn't in the larger forums.
[00:28:59] Let's [00:29:00] figure out a way for you to find your voice in one on one interactions with your colleagues so that you start building up your competence. Just wanted to throw that tidbit in because Ricardo. I'm not going to say it was easy for me. But it wasn't hard, and it wasn't hard, absolutely, because I'm probably hard.
[00:29:19] I think you know me well, I think people know my personality. I'm not going to say I'm Teflon lady, but it takes a lot to really upset me. I've been through a lot, and I've overcome a lot, so for that reason, I am able to take it on the chin while other ladies can't.
[00:29:38] Shormila Chatterjee: Wow, that's incredible. And you did talk about Charlie a little bit, but curious to hear the role similar to what you've been to so many women of what is the role of mentors been in your life?
[00:29:48] And do you have any good stories or did you seek them out? Was it organic? How has that kind of shaped your career?
[00:29:56] Marni Dicker: I would say that organic is probably to answer [00:30:00] your direct question. It happened in ways. Interestingly, my mentors and champions have been both men and women. I know when people seek out a mentor or champion, you often seek out someone that is like you or that you want to be like.
[00:30:20] I don't think that's personally, in my opinion, the best approach because it's. Maybe you need to seek out someone that is not like you so that they are able to pull you out of your shell or allow you to see different perspectives. And for me, the people that have shaped my life and mentored me were of that vintage.
[00:30:40] They were not like me. So they're, they might have been men. They might have been. A woman, but who was not a lawyer. I mean, let's for a minute, talk about a very important woman in my life, Marilyn Campbell. Marilyn was a member of the office of the president at SNC Lavalin, [00:31:00] and she moved into our Toronto offices.
[00:31:04] Oh, gosh, I can't even remember when, but I had about three or four years with her before I moved on. And she took me under her wing. So it happened organically because she liked something that she saw in me and she took it upon herself to force me to go with her for lunch or force me to go with her for coffee.
[00:31:29] And this was scary at the beginning. she was, Such a senior woman. She was tough as nails. But then once I got to know her, and once we spent a little bit of time together, she was like a big sister or an aunt, and she always had my best interest in mind, both professionally and personally. She helped me navigate my career through the.
[00:31:52] Essency level and web because there were so many companies. There were so many different levels of leadership. She made sure that I was [00:32:00] exposed to the right people so that I would be able to get the recognition that she felt I deserved. So for that, I'm deeply indebted to her. And I would say she was the only woman that has ever mentored or championed me, other than that, it was 100 percent men, and they took me under their wings, and they, I'm not going to say showed me the ropes, but they provided me perspective that, No woman would ever have been able to have shown me.
[00:32:31] It just wouldn't have come naturally to a woman. And for that, I thank the guys. And I thank those guys for just treating me as an individual, not making any special concessions because I was a Mom. You know what? I'm going to do this. I'm going to tell you this story because I guess we've all had shitty bosses, right?
[00:32:55] So let's just admit we've all had those bosses that you wish. Maybe it's not that they are hit by the proverbial [00:33:00] bus, but they were somehow removed from the organization.
[00:33:03] Shormila Chatterjee: Yeah,
[00:33:04] Marni Dicker: well I had one of those, I had one of those pretty early on in my career. Addison Sea. I'll leave names nameless, those that really care can figure it out.
[00:33:14] This individual didn't like me. He was an older man that had daughters around my age and his daughters stayed home and raised their children, and in his mind, that was the place for women. I had just come back from my first maternity leave and my son Ryan was probably less than a year old and this guy was really being a total jerk for me.
[00:33:41] He wasn't allowing me to do interesting projects because he would say things like, well, that might make you have to stay at work late and you won't be able to get home to your kids. But he wasn't saying that in the nice way that we do now. He was saying it in the, I really wish you weren't in this position and it eventually really [00:34:00] got to me.
[00:34:00] I was feeling belittled. I was feeling, why can't I balance both? Why is he holding me back? So rather than getting too upset about this or rather than doing anything crazy, I made a decision. I said, you know what, I'm going to have another baby. And I guess if I get pregnant,
[00:34:20] There's about nine months to let the baby cook. I'll take a couple of months maternity leave. He's such a jerk. I bet he'll be gone. So two great things came out of that epiphany that I had. My son Lee was conceived and born and this asshole was removed. And when I came back from maternity leave, I had a wonderful new boss and life was good again.
[00:34:43] Shormila Chatterjee: Oh, my gosh. So that was not a revenge baby, but
[00:34:49] Marni Dicker: I thank him every day for my baby. I really do. Like I said earlier, things happen for reasons. I was not going to give up a career or a place that I really liked. [00:35:00] I wasn't going to. Cause problems internally. I was a young woman that did care about having both a family and a career.
[00:35:09] And I thought, well, there's no time like the present.
[00:35:11] Shormila Chatterjee: Wow. and just picking up on that, Marnie, cause it is something that, I mean, I'll say selfishly. It's just feel like I am juggling. Knives every day with two young kids. Now. did you ever feel that kind of, if you really wanna push to the next level, did you ever feel that tension?
[00:35:29] And you talk about balance and the importance of balance, it's one thing to have it or know that you did it now that you're, your boys are older, but when you were in the trenches, in the thick of things, did you ever say, how am I gonna make this all work? what was your mindset when you were how do you.
[00:35:45] How do you make that happen when you were kind of younger?
[00:35:48] Marni Dicker: the way you make it happen is pick the right partner in life because you can't do it alone. And my life partner, my husband, [00:36:00] Paul gets all of the credit for enabling me to be able to have balance. We raised our children 50, 50. He was a working dad.
[00:36:09] I was a working mom and we Figured out how we can do it by splitting our time, splitting our responsibilities and shamila I'll say this, we had a full-time nanny. Yeah. and we had a full-time nanny that was like a third parent to our boys. And we loved her so much and we knew that she was taking such great care of our children, that we were able to go off to work and have long, hard days and travel when we had to.
[00:36:36] . But we knew that our children were being loved and cared for. . So. A lot of people don't want nannies. A lot of people can't afford nannies, but I look at it as outsourcing outsource what you can't do, or you outsource what you're too busy to do. So I source that I paid for it and it paid me back in dividends because I have two [00:37:00] wonderful sons, both of whom are Queens University grads out in the workforce right now.
[00:37:05] So, I guess, Paul and I. Along with the help of Rose, our nanny, did something right. Yeah. but just, I want to get this out too. On balance, don't be afraid to tell people you have a family.
[00:37:21] Shormila Chatterjee: And
[00:37:22] Marni Dicker: don't miss those important things. So if your children are in sports, go to their sports events. Be in the stands.
[00:37:30] Cheer loud. They know. They remember. Someone's not going to remember if you missed a meeting. Okay.
[00:37:36] Shormila Chatterjee: Yeah,
[00:37:36] Marni Dicker: And I held that true always. So I had an open calendar. People were able to see what my obligations werethroughout time. And I always put my son's hockey and football games into my calendar.
[00:37:53] Along with out of office because it was very important for me to be present for them because I knew those were the [00:38:00] things that would matter. So if it was a Tuesday afternoon and it was between three and five, but one of my sons had a football game, I was sitting in the stands. And the reason I was able to was because I blocked my time.
[00:38:11] I treated those events as important as a business meeting. Now, of course, if there's a business emergency that I had to change things, I would have.
[00:38:20] Shormila Chatterjee: Yeah.
[00:38:21] Marni Dicker: For over a decade when my sons competed in competitive sports, they always knew mom was in the stands. And I tell that to all of my team members. I say, go to the dance competition, go watch your kid play gymnastics, go to the pool and see them swim, go to the play that they have at four o'clock because those things only happen once.
[00:38:45] Shormila Chatterjee: Right.
[00:38:46] Marni Dicker: Because I held that mindset, I held true to it. And. Again, I'm really pleased with the decisions that I made mistakes in my life. We all have, but we have to learn from those mistakes And keep moving forward. So for [00:39:00] me, I was there for my kids and I was there for my teams. And the only person that might've missed out a little bit was me.
[00:39:10] And I'd be lying if I said anything otherwise. You balanced that you're a pretty great mom and I was a pretty great employee, but I was tired.
[00:39:20] Shormila Chatterjee: let's
[00:39:21] Marni Dicker: be honest with ourselves.
[00:39:22] Shormila Chatterjee: Yeah.
[00:39:23] Marni Dicker: But You blink, you really blink and your kids are grown up, you're a senior executive, you suddenly have time on your hands, and you say, wow, I'm What next?
[00:39:35] And that's what happened to me. I suddenly had so much time because all of the commitments that I had previously given to my sons had opened up.
[00:39:45] And that was why I embarked on doing board work. And I very much enjoy sitting on the boards of directors that I do, because it's both fulfilling personally, and it fills the time that had previously [00:40:00] been spent with young children.
[00:40:03] Shormila Chatterjee: That's incredible.
[00:40:04] Riccardo Cosentino: Yeah. I don't have children, so I can only imagine, but it must be stressful to balance things like, cause I know how stressful it is to choose between two meetings in my calendar. So I can only imagine how stressful it must be to block out time and to hold that block time.
[00:40:22] and you do it because that's the right thing to do. But it must be difficult. then there's probably that's your common the person that missed out a little bit is yourself.
[00:40:32] Marni Dicker: Yeah, it is. It really is. But as long as you know, this isn't forever.
[00:40:39] I got through it with exercise. I had to exercise. So when my kids were young and I had to be at the office, at 8 30 and you work all day and then you're going to either their sporting event or homework or whatever it is there. There's no time. Like we said for yourself. So I built in 6 a. m. [00:41:00] Five days a week was exercise time, and that was my me time.
[00:41:05] I didn't like waking up at 5 30 in the morning and heading out to the gym, but at 7 a. m. when my class or whatever it was that I did was over and I was showered and feeling good. I felt okay, I can conquer the day. Whatever is thrown at me. I've at least taken care of myself a little bit. And to me, if there is only one medicine that people can prescribe for stress, for anxiety, for figuring out how to balance the prescription that I would suggest is exercise, even if you go for a walk, clear your head, deep breathing, maybe do some yoga, Ricardo, that was how I survived.
[00:41:48] Shormila Chatterjee: Wow. That's incredible. And just pivoting a little bit. when you were saying earlier about kind of the linkages amongst your transitions, one thing that also struck me as you happen to be with organizations that themselves are going [00:42:00] through a lot of transition and growth while you were there, SNC went through a lot of growth on the infrastructure space.
[00:42:06] As you said, at that time, IO also was really getting their sea legs in that space. And now CPL,Is that something that you you're drawn to as there's no blueprint, you don't really know where the next 10 steps are. I find that incredible that entrepreneurial spirit really comes through when you, at least from the outside, see your career trajectory.
[00:42:27] Marni Dicker: Or maybe I'm just nuts. I'm not sure. Like I mentioned, I always want to have fun.
[00:42:34] So if it is more of the same every day, if we're manufacturing widgets and selling widgets, that just doesn't crank my chain. I always need there to be something bigger, something exciting, and it always looks like I'm chasing front page news or, I want to be in organizations that are front and center.
[00:42:54] I don't necessarily think that is the case, but I believe that. [00:43:00] Perhaps I am drawn to the big and exciting and the big and exciting in turn gets a little bit of recognition, positive and negative in the media. So, so for me, I just go where the fun is. I'm not saying this is my last gig, but I, I'm in a place right now where I feel that I could give back. I could have fun. And there is so much opportunity for growth. As I mentioned, we want to go from 8 teams to 16 teams and we're bringing internationals. The World Cup is coming to Toronto in 2026. that is fun with a capital F. So, I am just really looking forward to what the next couple of years have in store for me.
[00:43:45] And then, we'll see if we reach our 16 teams and everything becomes, lay of the land and boring, then you may just see me off doing something else.
[00:43:54] Shormila Chatterjee: Incredible, the paddle, the what's the pickleball? That's the new sport that I feel like [00:44:00] taking over, at least my local park. and also just to say, the name of the series is Master Builder, Marnie.
[00:44:09] I'm wondering if you get a chance to ever reflect on. your career and your achievements. LikeRicardo and I talk often this list of guests came together pretty organically because everybody knows, the Titans that you women are in this field. and that you're given also that you're all kind of champions of each other.
[00:44:26] Everybody said, Oh, have you talked to so, and it's allthe same names came up, which was really, I thought really. Nice to see. So I'm just curious, how do you reflect on your career? And do you ever get a chance to do that? and do you feel like a master builder?
[00:44:41] Marni Dicker: I do not feel like a master builder.
[00:44:43] And thank you for inviting me to a series called master builder back to the imposter syndrome. No, I think of myself as me when I reflect back and as we're having this conversation today, I sometimes go, [00:45:00] wow, geez, you really did accomplish that. Wow, you had an impact on that person's life and, maybe I don't know if we're coming to a close, but I really wanted to share this story.
[00:45:14] I got a phone call the other day. From someone his name's Tyler and Tyler was a laborer who was working for the builder that was building mine and Paul's home back in 2009 and Tyler was super smart and he was spending his days with the broom cleaning up the construction site and one day I started talking to him.
[00:45:40] And I realized that I was very right. Tyler had a big brain. Tyler just needed an opportunity. Tyler needed somebody to take a chance on him. So, I brought his very limited CV to the, Project team at us and see level.
[00:45:57] Shormila Chatterjee: And I
[00:45:58] Marni Dicker: said, you got to meet this [00:46:00] kid. He's just so amazing. I really think that if we have a junior project manager role or something, he's just someone that we should have inside this organization.
[00:46:10] Anyhow, he was interviewed in the normal course, and he did get the job and he did stay there for many years and progressively moved into more senior roles. And he is now moved into a. quite senior role with the City of Toronto. I lost track of him. I lost track of him from when I left SNC in 2012.
[00:46:32] And we hadn't spoken. And he called me a couple of days ago, or a couple of weeks ago, rather, out of the blue. And he said, Marnie, I've been thinking about you for years, and I just haven't picked up the phone to do it. And suddenly today, I decided there's no time like the present. I'm going to call you.
[00:46:49] And I wanted to tell you, What an impact you had on my life. Just the fact that you believed in me and it brought tears to my eyes and we had a great conversation. [00:47:00] And no, I'm not a master builder at all. I'm a master people person. And when I see something in a person, I'm going to grab onto it. And if I could help that person succeed in life, I'm going to do it.
[00:47:15] And if I am able to help guide somebody, or if I am able to work on a major project, or work on an infrastructure project, or build a stadium successfully, so other people can enjoy the work that I've done, then I attribute that to success.
[00:47:31] Shormila Chatterjee: Wow. What an incredible. And I think you're a master builder of Tyler's career and many others, which is I was going to say,
[00:47:39] Riccardo Cosentino: I was going to do something that I learned a long time not to do, which is argue with Marnie, but I will argue with Marnie and you are a master builder.
[00:47:46] Shormila Chatterjee: Yeah.
[00:47:46] Riccardo Cosentino: You are a master builder. So be it.
[00:47:47] Marni Dicker: Thank you.
[00:47:49] Riccardo Cosentino: Listen, this has been a great conversation, um, we're out a time. I want to thank you. I mean, the candor, the openness,the enthusiasm, I mean, we knew we [00:48:00] were in for a treat and obviously you exceeded our expectations.
[00:48:03] Shormila Chatterjee: Of course. Yeah.
[00:48:04] Riccardo Cosentino: Thank you for sharing your stories. I'm pretty sure that people will cherish them and hopefully use it to their benefit going forward.
[00:48:12] Shormila Chatterjee: Thank you so much.
[00:48:12] Marni Dicker: Thank you both for having me. It was really a pleasure. Yes, I'm an imposter. I've never done a podcast before. So, I was impostering and hoping that I didn't sound like a fool.
[00:48:25] Riccardo Cosentino: That's it for this episode of Navigating Major Problems. I hope you found today's conversation as informative and thought provoking as I did. If you enjoyed this conversation, please consider subscribing and leaving a review. I would also like to personally invite you to continue the conversation by joining me on my personal LinkedIn at Ricardo Cosentino.
[00:48:49] Listening to the next episode, where we will continue to explore the latest trends and challenges in major program management. Our next in depth conversation promises to continue to dive into [00:49:00] topics such as leadership, risk management, And the impact of emerging technology in infrastructure. It's a conversation you're not going to want to miss.
[00:49:10] Thanks for listening to Navigating Major Programs, and I look forward to keeping the conversation going.